Woolwich serious incident

[Craterloads]

Look ive said i think what these two men have done is babaric and there is no excusing their actions. They did wrong, their justifcation is wrong.

All i am saying is why act with such suprise when our forces do the same routinely.

 

[Robbo]

I don't know whether to ban him or report him :/

Nobody here would miss his warped version of reality.

 

[NZB]

It's a horrible and tragic piece of news, but now I'm surprised it's got as much as coverage as it has. I think a lot of it comes from the reaction to the bystanders and the aftermath.

Home soil plus the hanging around for so long to make a statement, wandering around talking to people for 20 mins afterwards is scary in that it makes people feel like they're not safe or protected. It makes people scared and the media dont even have to spin, it's all provided for them.

 

[Xordium]

@ Craterloadds: You've said a bit more than that and you've willfully ignored evidence the contrary.

You've also been challenged repeatedly by other Muslim posters for some of the statements you've made which appear almost cut and pasted from some radical site. Oh no you haven't been actually have you ... quick to defend their faith eloquently though weren't they. Hmm guess it goes back to my initial thoughts.

 

[Craterloads]

You've said a bit more than that and you've willfully ignored evidence the contrary.

You've also been challenged repeatedly by other Muslim posters for some of the statements you've made which appear almost cut and pasted from some radical site. Oh no you haven't been actually have you ... quick to defend their faith eloquently though weren't they. Hmm guess it goes back to my initial thoughts.

I'm not defending their actions, they are indefensible. Ive stated they are wrong and they should be punished accordingly.

These are the truths,. just watch this documentary by a BBC presenter and tell me what we are doing in Afghanistan

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/...ke-full-length

My issue is pretending that we are whiter than white.

 

[topher]

It's only your problem, no one elses. I notice you didn't reply to my post about the bedroom tax either.



It's probably a public order offence, if you were stood shouting hateful abuse at a bookies or chip shop and refused to leave, you can expect the police to arrive too. You seriously spend too much time on facebook/the internet looking at right wing rubbish. I am sick to death of people like you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/12/kent-man-arrested-burning-poppy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12664346

The Police aren't dealing with any group in a special way, if you have broken a law you will be dealt with.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_and_Religious_Hatred_Act_2006



When was the time anyone cared?

what is the issue with bedroom tax?
Surely burning poppies and celebrating a soldiers death or shouting abuse at our armed forces is a public offence then?

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I don't know whether to ban him or report him :/

We should never limit our options unless forced to. I'd suggest that you are not forced to in this instance.

 

[Twirlywoos]

It was good to see on the news the different heads of different religions standing together to condemn what happened.

What we need now is for ALL the media to get behind a fix it campaign to try and unite us all against these extremists and out them all.

Lets give muslim leaders more of a voice to help push the peacefulness of their faith.

Something good should come out of all this. If it doesn't then again the nutters win

I said it before and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as a Muslim Leader - who's opinion will govern the actions of the followers. Like Christianity or any other religion Islam is divided into literally hundreds of schools of thoughts.

Sure in Britain we have the MCB (who are a very liberal group of Muslims) but do you think your average terrorist will become radicalised in a Mosque and will attend the MCB's services? No they don't and won't!!

These terrorist groups or extreme Muslims as they are called today started as al muhajiroun who when I was in High School used to have desks and hand out pamphlets outside of schools.

http://globalnews.ca/news/585930/background-what-is-al-muhajiroun/

The above article is wrong, the group started way before 1996.

Groups like al-muhajiroun and the EDL should never have been allowed to flourish and all of their founders should be locked up so they can stop spreading hate and corrupting young minds. As long as these groups are allowed to spread their message in the UK there will be more incidents like in Woolwich. All imo ofcourse.

 

[SPG]

Still even after all the shenanigans around the world for whatever reason there has never been a more peaceful time on earth. Doesn't seem like with the media and there appetite for sensationalism.

Noticed its started now a little as MI5 tried to recruit him which is fair enough in my book. Tough job for our security forces indeed.

Oh and crater we are not invading anyone, its more in faff around helping those that want to be helped. i.e the majority then out again.

 

[teaboy5]

I'm not defending their actions, they are indefensible. Ive stated they are wrong and they should be punished accordingly.

These are the truths,. just watch this documentary by a BBC presenter and tell me what we are doing in Afghanistan

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/...ke-full-length

My issue is pretending that we are whiter than white.

Have you watched that? It's based around US troops. Also you state we control drones from the UK? We only just started doing this a late last year, and we have a small fleet of around 10 drones. All drone UK strikes before that were carried out from the states.

Also every bit of information you post again relates to things the US has done. Just to remind you, that we are in the UK and our army are completely different.

 

[Castiel]

Allied forces, all the same to people fighting for an end of occupation.

Not all those people see it as an occupation, a good many of them see it as a liberation.

They are still part of the army, do we question what role a militant plays in their clubs?

We do in fact...the actions and intentions of militant groups plays a very important part in how we deal with them operationally and politically.

Including attacking western forces, at the time of attacking them they are in a non combatant state. Like the Barracks here. In conentional war with lets say russia vs the UK, would Russia not target military bases around the UK?

We do not, or should not attack militants who pose no immediate or potential threat to either troops, police or civilians. However militia training camps are effectively military installations and are legitimate targets as the militias inside are in fact conducting actions that define them as active combatants.

The chap in woolwich was neither active nor were those that killed him legitimate enemy combatants. They held no affiliation to any group or armed force that is currently in a declared state of war with the UK.

Wasnt like that beofre the invasion and handing power to the opposition, which is pretty much corrupt to the core.

Part of the reason the allied forces were invited into Afghanistan was to redress an oppressive regime who also offered safe haven to militant groups whose stated aim was the killing of civilians in order to perpetrate a change in global hegemony. This was not only a threat to Western populations, but also to Muslims who stand in opposition to such oppressive expressions of Islam.

Have you seen who we have put in power now? Pedo, rapists, drug users/traffickers. This is the reality of the war

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/...ke-full-length

I know what the realities of war are my friend....but your link doesn't work so I cannot comment on it.

I'm not justifying the action, the actions were and are wrong. So are the ones commited by us.

It certainly sounds as if you are trying to legitimise the actions of these two men
by comparing them to other acts you feel legitimise that justification. Two wrongs do not make a right, even if we accept your interpretation of such. Given that similar acts are also punished and condemned even when perpetrated by UK servicemen/civilians against foreign civilians I do not see your argument holding much weight.

The bottom line is that if Militants ceased targeting civilian populations, stopped seeking to oppress and illicit regime change in order to destabilise and/or create a global caliphate at the expense of stable progressive and moderate nations, if some regimes ceased to support such terrorism within their borders, ceased murdering their own people, ceased attempting to undermine or subvert global markets and economies then there would be no reason to defend and support those (including us) from such people. Perhaps then we can get on with rebuilding and offering people the chance to express the 'will of the people' as they wish, at the same time denouncing and removing those in our administrations who seek to profit from such discordance, conflict and divisiveness.

 

[Craterloads]

Not all those people see it as an occupation, a good many of them see it as a liberation.

Did they ask for liberation. Essentially we have put the northern Afganis in charge of the entire country, who dont get on with the south. Of corase the corrupt money grabbing illegitimate goverment of Karzai dont see it as an occupation.

We do not, or should not attack militants who pose no immediate or potential threat to either troops, police or civilians. However militia training camps are effectively military installations and are legitimate targets as the militias inside are in fact conducting actions that define them as active combatants.

In non combatative states, training camps are a legitimate target. No different to Army basis. As are targeted assasination on people in non combatative states.

The chap in woolwich was neither active nor were those that killed him legitimate enemy combatants. They held no affiliation to any group or armed force that is currently in a declared state of war with the UK.

They can affiliate themselves with whom ever they choose. We chose to allie with the US. He was a active serving member of the opposing side, recieving training at his army base. Just as fighters of the opposing side are targeted at thier bases.

Part of the reason the allied forces were invited into Afghanistan was to redress an oppressive regime who also offered safe haven to militant groups whose stated aim was the killing of civilians in order to perpetrate a change in global hegemony. This was not only a threat to Western populations, but also to Muslims who stand in opposition to such oppressive expressions of Islam.

Were invited? The BBC journislist suggest the "taliban" where "welcomed into power" and our own analysis includes they will return to power after we leave. You cant do that without the will of the people. The initial goal was fair, chasing out al-qaeda. They are long gone or mostly gone, now we are fighting majority afghans.

I know what the realities of war are my friend....but your link doesn't work so I cannot comment on it.

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1

Sorry here

It certainly sounds as if you are trying to legitimise the actions of these two men by comparing them to other acts you feel legitimise that justification. Two wrongs do not make a right, even if we accept your interpretation of such. Given that similar acts are also punished and condemned even when perpetrated by UK servicemen/civilians against foreign civilians I do not see your argument holding much weight.

Actually im saying both wrongs are wrongs, niether is justified. We target enemy soldiers in non combatent states, we use target assasisnation, we legitimise strikes on funerals because enemy soldiers are pressent in a non combatent role. Why so suprised when the enemy does the same like in any war. Both sides are trying to kill each other, not a suprise.

 

[Aedus]

WTF?



...that they didn't know was a soldier before they ran him over.

Pretty sure they knew he was a soldier.

Maybe saw him leaving the barracks?

 

[Janesy B]

what is the issue with bedroom tax?
Surely burning poppies and celebrating a soldiers death or shouting abuse at our armed forces is a public offence then?

There is no issue, someone was getting caught up in right wing propaganda and I put them right.

and yes, thats why one person was fined for offences under the public order act

 

[robfosters]

As I said earlier, the flowers are incredible at the barracks, but they eventually wither away. I genuinely think a permanent memorial should be constructed in memory of the poor lad. Doesn't have to be anything massive, just a memorial stone or something.

 

[Gilly]

Pretty sure they knew he was a soldier.

Maybe saw him leaving the barracks?

I'm pretty sure they didn't, so where does that leave us?

He hadn't been in the barracks for hours. He was returning.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Not all those people see it as an occupation, a good many of them see it as a liberation.

We do in fact...the actions and intentions of militant groups plays a very important part in how we deal with them operationally and politically.

We do not, or should not attack militants who pose no immediate or potential threat to either troops, police or civilians. However militia training camps are effectively military installations and are legitimate targets as the militias inside are in fact conducting actions that define them as active combatants.

The chap in woolwich was neither active nor were those that killed him legitimate enemy combatants. They held no affiliation to any group or armed force that is currently in a declared state of war with the UK.

Part of the reason the allied forces were invited into Afghanistan was to redress an oppressive regime who also offered safe haven to militant groups whose stated aim was the killing of civilians in order to perpetrate a change in global hegemony. This was not only a threat to Western populations, but also to Muslims who stand in opposition to such oppressive expressions of Islam.

I know what the realities of war are my friend....but your link doesn't work so I cannot comment on it.

It certainly sounds as if you are trying to legitimise the actions of these two men
by comparing them to other acts you feel legitimise that justification. Two wrongs do not make a right, even if we accept your interpretation of such. Given that similar acts are also punished and condemned even when perpetrated by UK servicemen/civilians against foreign civilians I do not see your argument holding much weight.

The bottom line is that if Militants ceased targeting civilian populations, stopped seeking to oppress and illicit regime change in order to destabilise and/or create a global caliphate at the expense of stable progressive and moderate nations, if some regimes ceased to support such terrorism within their borders, ceased murdering their own people, ceased attempting to undermine or subvert global markets and economies then there would be no reason to defend and support those (including us) from such people. Perhaps then we can get on with rebuilding and offering people the chance to express the 'will of the people' as they wish, at the same time denouncing and removing those in our administrations who seek to profit from such discordance, conflict and divisiveness.

I've got nothing to add but that was an outstanding post.

 

[Freakbro]

It's a horrible and tragic piece of news, but now I'm surprised it's got as much as coverage as it has. I think a lot of it comes from the reaction to the bystanders and the aftermath.

I was thinking this earlier tbh. At the end of the day the crux of it is a man got stabbed to death in the street, a terrible occurence for any reason..

But I don't see a single post about 75 year old Mohammed Saleem Chaudry, stabbed to death on the street in Birmingham 3 weeks ago, the only suspect being a white man seen running away from the scene by CCTV.

Just as terrible, no?

 

[Twirlywoos]

How do you know what they were thinking?

I can never know precisely what they were thinking, but taking the quotes from this article:
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10436704.Woolwich_attack___you_will_never_be_safe/

"He said 'Don't touch, I killed him'. I said 'Why?' He said 'He's a British soldier. He killed people. He killed Muslim people in Muslim countries'.

He explained to her that the victim was a British Soldier and has "probably" killed Muslims in their own Country. So he recognised who he had killed immediately with his justification.

And I said, 'OK. So what would you like?' I tried to make him talk about how he felt. He said all the bombs dropping and blindly killing women, children...

He's referring to drone strikes, artillery strikes where innocent Muslim women and children are killed or caught up in the crossfire.

"More and more people were starting to come. There were so many people around. I just looked around and I found it so daunting."

Ms Loyau-Kennett said her thoughts were to just carry on talking to the man, while several women arriving at the scene tried to shield the victim.

She said: "I wanted him to concentrate on me and make sure he doesn't have a funny idea.

"He (the killer) told me he was a British soldier - he didn't look like a British soldier to me, he wasn't in uniform. But I thought if another one passes by, or is in the area..."

This doesn't make sense to me as it contradicts his first statement where he identified the victim as being a soldier. I need to watch the video and listen whether he makes that remark, as the Woman may also have been mistaken as it would have been a terrifying time for her too.

Asked if she was scared, the woman replied: "No - better me than a child.

"Unfortunately, there were more and more mothers with children stopping around, so it was even more important I was talking to him and ask him what he wanted."

Woolwich and Greenwich MP Nick Raynsford praised the extraordinary bravery of members of the public who approached the killers.

The men are in separate London hospitals being treated for injuries after they were shot by police at the scene.

Relatives of the dead soldier have been informed, though he has yet to be named.

One of the attackers behind the barbaric killing was filmed wielding a bloodied meat cleaver, saying: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.

ANY soldier who fights against Muslims in foreign lands or the Homeland (Britain)

"In the chilling footage, he explains his terrifying actions.

"We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, he is heard to say in the clip," obtained by ITV News.

His interpretation of an Islamic Legislation which he took in the literal sense for retribution towards the soldier.

"I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your Government, they dont care about you."

He apologises for those who had witnessed the murder and any trauma it caused them. "In our Land" (the Muslim territories) Women witness the killing of those who are innocent victims of war or who are fighting for their beliefs, culture, faith (way of life). "The Government don't care about you" (The Government will continue to use innocent people and send them to war to fulfil any hidden agendas)

If I find the video I will hear exactly what he said. I don't trust media articles.

 

[lemonade]

So they've arrested the guy who has just revealed some important explicit details which explains a lot of things.