Woolwich serious incident

Considering this is a US led war and it’s their terrorist list we are playing by. Do you not agree the US opinion regarding terrorist in that region is not one that can be considered fair or representative given how they change that list depending on their foreign policy at the time? One including the the status of the Taliban themselves.

Why ignore them Afghans and only listen to the ones who say what we want to hear? Surely if you want Afghanistan to move forward we need to see the views of them objectively?

For one I did not say ignore anyone, I said don't judge your opinion only on one section of opinion. Secondly the US do not classify the Taliban as Terrorists. Thirdly, the list (for want of a better word) doesn't change simply because of foreign policy, foreign policy changes because of the actions of these groups and their status changes accordingly. And finally I was not speaking about Afghan or the region in isolation with reference to how we define the status of certain groups, but across the globe and we are not always in compliance with the US, neither are many other nations...undermining your assertion that the US defines everyone's foreign policies for them.


What is it then if not an occupation of 13 years?

It was an UNSC intervention into a civil war and as the acronym ISAF suggests, it is assistance and training to assure the security and stability of the country and assist with the reconstruction and training of the Afghanistan Army.

It seems you are unwilling to acknowledge many Afghans have a legitimate cause of freeing themselves of western forces because it somehow undermines the legitimacy of the campaign? Can you not see why they may wish to do this?

I acknowledge that a section of the Afghan population do indeed think this way, but I don't base my opinion on it in isolation and strive to be objective and not fall into the trap of associating one sections opinion and feelongs with that of everyone.

No one is denying that a large portion of civilian deaths are attributed to the Taliban and their supporters but that doesn’t take away or change the fact of the many atrocities committed by western forces. Because the Taliban does bad, doesn’t somehow make disappear the actions of the western forces or change the feelings of the locals. Is it wrong to want to be free of military presence of outsiders?

This illustrates what I was saying above...you attribute the feelings of some as being the feeling of all.


They did vote for someone else the last time but it is felt the US needed someone who they could work with whilst stationed in the country. It was widely reported regarding the mass corruption in the last elections. Not to mention CIA money being paid in the hundreds of millions to Afghani officials (also reported) The corruption has been highly documented by all reputable agencies, running from the top to low level police commanders. Accused escape jailtime for all sorts of crimes including rape/murder and in cases return to positions of power.

That is a misrepresentation of the facts. Not the corruption or the CIA tactics, but the fact that Karzai was 'installed' by the ISAF..that is simply not true. His opponent dropped out therefore the UN mandated run-off election that was forced on Karzai due to accusations of vote rigging and intimidation (from both sides, and especially from the Taliban, which caused serious issues with turnout) was invalidated.

That there is corruption and widespread infiltration into both the Govenment and the Afghan Security Forces is a given, this doesn't imply that the alternatives are preferable or indeed better, neither should it deter us from trying to improve and give the Afghan people the opportunity of self determination free from tyranny.


Two wrongs dont make a right? The ordinary Aghans are stuck between a rock and a hard place. It doesnt take much imagination where this leads to. Maybe they want rid of all, corrupt western backed government, taliban and western forces. Do they not have the right to fight for thier freedom?

They have the right to self determination and to express themselves accordingly...however, if they join the militias and terror organisations and try to assert that expression through the medium of terror against civilians then they do not have the right to that. Their freedoms do not override the life's or freedoms of others to live in peace, free from intimidation and fear.

Of course it not as simple as that. He is unpopular and is corrupt, just look at his brother and what he does. The problem is corruption all the way to the top, documented. The elections was marred with vote rigging and pressure was applied for the opposition to step down.

The main pressure actually came from the militias and the Taliban to stop people voting at all, and they used intimidation and fear to do so. It is not as simple or as black and white as you suggest.

Relying on reputable sources including BBC journalists, local Afghans, occupying soldiers and not just from the one documentary.

Yet you only rely upon those that forward your own opinon, rather than listening to everyone and objectively forming an opinon based on that. Sorry Craterlads, but I feel that your own prejudices form your opinion and you search for supporting opinon or misrepresent opinon in order to support that prejudice.

The situation is foobar that is for sure, but it is not entirely as you describe.

Anyway this is getting circular and forgive me but I have a wife who is complaining I need to do stuff, so I will have to leave this fr now. Enjoy your weekend Craterloads, stay out of trouble. :)
 
Last edited:
Me and you could be arrested under 'terror laws' right now. Need a reason? Don't be silly!

Actually, I had a little research to see if what I was referencing was still in place. To my absolute delight, control orders were abolished in 2011, hooray! Now exists a slightly less repugnant scheme that achieves a similar goal and allows detention for a maximum of 2 years.

You have to wonder though, if the former law wasn't so offensive, would I be satisfied with the new...?

I didn't say I agreed with them, in fact I don't agree with curtailing basic freedoms and equal justice in the name of national security....that, to me at least, is compromising our very principles in the face of intimidation and fear....and I refuse to be intimidated by the likes of that lot.

It wasn't necessary during the Troubles, it shouldn't be now.
 
As I said earlier, the flowers are incredible at the barracks, but they eventually wither away. I genuinely think a permanent memorial should be constructed in memory of the poor lad. Doesn't have to be anything massive, just a memorial stone or something.

They look soo ugly with all the stupid cellophane and plastic wrapping. Can people please remove them from all the plastic rubbish that they come with in the petrol station and just leave the actual flowers!
 
Right, I had to go out into the night and get a clear head on this one.

Come to the conclusion that using an event like this to push ANY adgenda of my own, is wrong.

No matter how well meaning, it somehow condones the act.

Apologies if I have offened anyone.

:)
 
I haven't been here forever I'll admit, but I don't remember anything? :confused:

It used to be massively far right and a lot of racist members to boot but it's changed for the better now, much improved.

I mean in the past the old forum owner once started a thread called "'Why do Pakistanis smell?". I could go on as well.

But now it's a pretty pleasant place to be.
 
Last edited:
It used to be massively far right and a lot of racist members to boot but it's changed for the better now, much improved.

But are comments like 'send these 3rd world monkeys back to where they come from' racist or stating in distasteful way what our country ought to be doing?
 
It used to be massively far right and a lot of racist members to boot but it's changed for the better now, much improved.

I mean in the past the old forum owner once started a thread called "'Why do Pakistanis smell?". I could go on as well.

But now it's a pretty pleasant place to be.

Agreed, the main problem now is the number of morons who think it's racist to be against Islamic extremism.
 
it's sad, facebook idiots and EDL folk are still ranting and being insanely racist... something terrible and properly nasty happens, and because the people involved were claiming to doing it in the name of a certain religion, it's mass hysteria, 'send them all home' 'immigrants this / that and the next thing'


The main guy in involved, send him home? He is home. He's british. He wasn't on benefits. He isn't an immigrant. It's nothing to do with immigrants. Britain is made of immigrants, going back hundreds and hundreds of years.

During the IRA troubles, I assume the people that are ranting would have wanted all the Irish 'sent home' and the death penalty for them all? Perhaps the typical EDL supporter would have wanted them all battered / kicked in, and then had a massive go at Christianity generally, much like they are at Muslims generally as a result of this.

A 75 year old Muslim man was stabbed in the back a number of times by some white youths in Birmingham not long ago. A terrible crime. Barely made the news.

It's a sad world we live in where evil crimes do happen, in fact in this country on a daily basis, and in some other places terrible things do happen. But bad things are carried out by bad people, regardless of religion, colour, gender or sexual disposition. Unfortunately the actions of the few, from any social background, religion, colour, gender or sexual disposition always tar the image of the many these days.


I hope no one thinks I'm saying what happened wasn't terrible, as that's not the case. But the over reaction of 'anti muslim movements' and the comments I've read on facebook / twitter / various forums really get my back up. Genuinely I've read things by people I went to school with such as 'its every english white persons duty to batter a p**i this weekend' and absolute drivel like that. It is highly frustrating.
 
Agreed, the main problem now is the number of morons who think it's racist to be against Islamic extremism.

it's not racist to be against extremism of any form. But honestly, a lot of people are expressing their anger against islamic extremism as 'batter all muslims' 'send them all home' etc. That's not being correctly expressed is it?

I'm not a muslim, but have many muslim friends, all of whom are great people. None of them are extremists.

I have many christian friends, none of them are extremists either.


Extremists of any religion that wish to cause others harm need to be rooted out, not just islam.
 
I think it's more a case of people being xenophobic then actually racist, 'send the ****'s home!' is racist, 'send the Muslims back to where they came from!' is xenophobic. Well that's how I understand it anyway.
 
I think it's more a case of people being xenophobic then actually racist, 'send the ****'s home!' is racist, 'send the Muslims back to where they came from!' is xenophobic. Well that's how I understand it anyway.

indeed. but I can't read xenophobic without thinking of the word xenomorphs. and thus Aliens. GAME OVER MAN!
 
This illustrates what I was saying above...you attribute the feelings of some as being the feeling of all.

I specifically said some and not all "many Afghans"

They have the right to self determination and to express themselves accordingly...however, if they join the militias and terror organisations and try to assert that expression through the medium of terror against civilians then they do not have the right to that. Their freedoms do not override the life's or freedoms of others to live in peace, free from intimidation and fear.

I wasn’t talking about attacking civilians; you're attributing the actions of some to all Afghans. I'm referring to ordinary Afghans resisting western forces, in which there are many. I appears that you only support self-determination as long it’s within the confines of your narrow view and one where the role western forces stationed in another land is infallible, which simply isn’t the case for many.

The main pressure actually came from the militias and the Taliban to stop people voting at all, and they used intimidation and fear to do so. It is not as simple or as black and white as you suggest.

1.5 million dodgy votes was associated with President Karzai by the monitoring agency.

Yet you only rely upon those that forward your own opinon, rather than listening to everyone and objectively forming an opinon based on that. Sorry Craterlads, but I feel that your own prejudices form your opinion and you search for supporting opinon or misrepresent opinon in order to support that prejudice.

The situation is foobar that is for sure, but it is not entirely as you describe.

Anyway this is getting circular and forgive me but I have a wife who is complaining I need to do stuff, so I will have to leave this fr now. Enjoy your weekend Craterloads, stay out of trouble. :)

Anyhow i guess the answer lies somewhere in the middle of your opinion and my own. As i too feel your opinions are as a result of your own prejudices and loyalties rather than one that is impartial but that is as expected.

You can’t really comment on how I formed my opinion unless you have actually seen what I have formed my opinion on :) which contrary to your assumptions are based off western impartial sources, rather than one of an agenda. My opinion isn’t one of the minority, so it would be important to also take your own advice.
 
Last edited:
A 75 year old Muslim man was stabbed in the back a number of times by some white youths in Birmingham not long ago. A terrible crime. Barely made the news.

I'd imagine that all the Christians that are routinely harassed and killed in Pakistan don't make the news either? It's fairly universal to not be interested in situations that do not relate to a societies historical background (in the UK's case a nominally WASP one).

Even this story barely made the headlines in the USA, they are all too busy with their tornados and lost puppies to be interested.
(Note to terrorists: don't do something for attention if people are otherwise preoccupied)
 
I'd imagine that all the Christians that are routinely harassed and killed in Pakistan don't make the news either? It's fairly universal to not be interested in situations that do not relate to a societies historical background (in the UK's case a nominally WASP one).

Even this story barely made the headlines in the USA, they are all too busy with their tornados and lost puppies to be interested.
(Note to terrorists: don't do something for attention if people are otherwise preoccupied)

I'd imagine so too. As I said, bad things happen, they are done by bad people, and best not to judge entire religions / races / groups as a result.

Honestly though, I have concern in the growing number of anti 'anything that isn't white' comments (I don't mean from you bitslice!) as that's taking what happened, and not targetting the anger accordingly at all. And it doesn't bode well.
 
I think it's more a case of people being xenophobic then actually racist, 'send the ****'s home!' is racist, 'send the Muslims back to where they came from!' is xenophobic. Well that's how I understand it anyway.

Send the Muslims home is potentially racist too as it may well be(and likely is by the EDL muppets) used as a proxy for 'Pakistani'.

Suggesting the Islamic extremists to go live elsewhere is fair comment - this Iman agrees:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151925108569535

I treat religion in general with contempt, I'd say I actually dislike a lot of the effects of Religion on the policy of various Governments including our own. (I do recognise that religion can be a force for good but I don't believe its necessary or relevant these days) - I fully support the right in general of everyone to follow their beliefs without prejudice against them as individuals - including wearing whatever relgious garments they want (the French ban on headscarfs is wrong), though no beliefs are sacred and the beliefs themselves should also be open to criticism, ridicule etc... There are some people though, a minority, who want to live here and actively want to carry out physical attacks on elements of our society... I really don't have any issue at all in declaring that those people should **** off and go live in a place ruled by people who follow their perverse ideology.
 
It's sad really. The police and various security agencies are spending lots of time and resources to counter religious extremism such as what lead to the Woolwich incident. Now, as if that wasn't hard enough, resources are being diverted to deal with the outbursts from right wing groups such as the EDL.

It's not just that either - monitoring Facebook and Twitter for stupid people who are having their own racist rants are also likely and I expect that there will be a fair few prosecutions for various offences in the coming months.
 
Back
Top Bottom