Poll: Poll: should the UK ban the islamic veil?

[lunarwolf]

My point still stands Lunar. Regardless of when you changed it.

It being banned for anything other then security reasons is a pointless discussion.

i am sorry that you fail to see of why the burkha is oppressive to women, but that doesn't make it a pointless argument. you are the one who fails to understand that 9 of 10 people here have a problem with the veil for different reasons. (wether they agree with the ban or not)

your argument that woemn choose to wear it is misguided, since as i have said others are pressured into it by religion or family and some even forced to, which you love to omit.

 

[Dolph]

i am sorry that you fail to see of why the burkha is oppressive to women, but that doesn't make it a pointless argument. you are the one who fails to understand that 9 of 10 people here have a problem with the veil for different reasons. (wether they agree with the ban or not)

your argument that woemn choose to wear it is misguided, since as i have said others are pressured into it by religion or family and some even forced to, which you love to omit.

What is the difference between the husband/father telling someone what they can wear and the state telling them what they can wear on fear of punishment?

Both positions are abhorrent.

 

[Allnamestaken]

No i have agreed that there are a minority of people in this culture who are forced and pressured into wearing it this is true and this i do dislike.

But i do respect the ones who choose to wear a headscalf, OR a full bodied veil.

I do dislike the covering of the face and think that that should not be alowed where as i do not have an issue with them wearing a hijab to cover there body just not the face.

I respect that choice.

I dont as i said above respect when it is forced upon someone.

At the end of the day who am i to TELL someone what to wear? I will express my opinions and that is all. In time culture does change and strict rules in culture become more lax.
A long time back you you would not see that many islamic people in the middle east NOT wearing hijabs the world is modernising and things are changing.

You cannot simply just deside that people cannot wear something in this country, it will destroy the natural order of change and not only will it offend the muslim community it will offend the non muslim community aswell it will worsen the divide. The government has no right impeding on our personal rights.

If they were to say in airports and government buildings that you are not alowed to cover your face i would respect that but in public space other then the above i do not fully agree.

Pressured is a whole other thing I dislike it but then people are pressured into doing all sorts things whether it be religion or otherwise.

 

[RDM]

What is the difference between the husband/father telling someone what they can wear and the state telling them what they can wear on fear of punishment?

Both positions are abhorrent.

Lesser of two evils?

 

[muon]

your argument that woemn choose to wear it is misguided, since as i have said others are pressured into it by religion or family and some even forced to, which you love to omit.

Banning a veil doesn't empower these people. Secondly, are we going to ban things people are pressured into by religion now?

Finally, if women feel forced to do something, then there is something clearly wrong with our social services system. Adults in the UK are their own people, and we simply need to educate people of this. That would be the real problem, not wearing of veils.

 

[Dolph]

Lesser of two evils?

It isn't an binary choice, so there is no reason to take the lesser of two evils option. I'd also add that the intervention of the state is worse than the intervention of the husband/father, because one can be escaped, and the other cannot.

 

[eatcustard]

No we don't, we live in a republic. (

and I thought we had a constitutional monarchy.


all hail the president

 

[muon]

Lesser of two evils?

No. The person has the right to wear what they want, independent of the husband or state. That is what the law says. If the person is unaware of this, perhaps we need to teach this better in schools and public service mediums. Making someone aware of the rights they have, empowers them. Not dictating to them what we feel the person would choose under free choice.

 

[Ricochet J]

Should the UK ban the Sikh (or of any kind) turban?

 

[RDM]

It isn't an binary choice, so there is no reason to take the lesser of two evils option.

Ban it, don't ban it. Seems pretty binary to me.

I'd also add that the intervention of the state is worse than the intervention of the husband/father, because one can be escaped, and the other cannot.

If they are unable to find the courage not to wear the veil do you honestly think they will find the sometimes considerable courage needed to leave such a relationship and probably community?

FWIW I don't think the ban is the right way of doing things but I do not like the veil at all and what it represents. Not to mention it is frankly rude and disrespectful to the wider community to cut yourself off from it so visibly.

 

[growse]

women are not a minority, and this burkha stands against equality for women.

No, it doesn't. I don't think you understand what 'equality' means.

Someone best tell the queen....

I would have thought that even you'd recognise that our current governmental system is a lot closer to a republic than it is to a monarchy. It's not a by-the-book absolute 'true' republic, I grant you, but the way we're governed bears closest relation to a republic. We're certainly not a democracy (I don't know of a country that actually is - California is probably the best example).

 

[eatcustard]

Should the UK ban the Sikh (or of any kind) turban?

You can still see his face

 

[muon]

If they are unable to find the courage not to wear the veil do you honestly think they will find the sometimes considerable courage needed to leave such a relationship and probably community?

FWIW I don't think the ban is the right way of doing things but I do not like the veil at all and what it represents. Not to mention it is frankly rude and disrespectful to the wider community to cut yourself off from it so visibly.

How does banning the veil help this person exactly? Also how does it not hurt people who wish to wear veils?

 

[RDM]

No. The person has the right to wear what they want, independent of the husband or state. That is what the law says. If the person is unaware of this, perhaps we need to teach this better in schools and public service mediums. Making someone aware of the rights they have, empowers them. Not dictating to them what we feel the person would choose under free choice.

Covered many times in this thread already. Effectively you are talking perfect world stuff where societal pressure does not exist, where abusive relationships do not exist and where all "choice" is freely entered in to.

Should the UK ban the Sikh (or of any kind) turban?

It doesn't have the same history of repression associated with it. It also doesn't restrict communication on the same level and promote division on the same level.

 

[lunarwolf]

Banning a veil doesn't empower these people.

well i disagree strongly since i believe it empowers them by making them integrate with society more, and wearing a burkha does not let you integrate into western society. also let me point out that the Koran does not require women to wear the burkha only a radical form of islam does, and as i have said before this radical islam is incompatible with western values.

may i remind those that speak of freedoms, there we have freedom up to a point. we have laws so running around in the street naked is not tolerated, more to the point we have laws guaranteeing women's statutes.

 

[eatcustard]

I would have thought that even you'd recognise that our current governmental system is a lot closer to a republic than it is to a monarchy. It's not a by-the-book absolute 'true' republic, I grant you, but the way we're governed bears closest relation to a republic..

Try the otherway around.

 

[muon]

Covered many times in this thread already. Effectively you are talking perfect world stuff where societal pressure does not exist, where abusive relationships do not exist and where all "choice" is freely entered in to.

Like I said, if we start at veils, what about adhering to many other things due to societal pressure.

I would argue being forced into religion, is much more harmful than the wearing of a veil. I would never advocate the banning of religion.

 

[uv]

instead they honor kill us, they bomb us, they slaughter us

Woah there, you're going to give yourself palpitations!

How can you honestly automatically assume that all practicers of Islam are fundamentalists and extremeists?

I have to say, I've got a few immigrant friends, and afaik none of them have killed me yet. I'll have to let them know they're doing it wrong!

 

[RDM]

I would have thought that even you'd recognise that our current governmental system is a lot closer to a republic than it is to a monarchy. It's not a by-the-book absolute 'true' republic, I grant you, but the way we're governed bears closest relation to a republic. We're certainly not a democracy (I don't know of a country that actually is - California is probably the best example).

The key thing to a republic is lack of a monarchy. We fall outside of that. Whilst our system does indeed fall close to many republics (but not all) it is completely inaccurate to say we live in a republic. Representative Democracy would probably have been a better option.

How does banning the veil help this person exactly? Also how does it not hurt people who wish to wear veils?

For a start they no longer have to wear the veil and they no longer have to be kept quite as seperate from the rest of society. It is a starting point rather than an end.

 

[Allnamestaken]

Let me just educate you lot.

A BURKA is different from a HIJAB.

What you see women in OUR country wearing is a HIJAB.

A burka is what you see in Afganistan mainly. The purple horrible looking veil

A hijab is full length suit which if the women chooses it covers the face.
If not then they dont but it is different in that you have that freedom with it.

The burka is different.


Just so you can call it a hijab because that is what were talking about in the UK.