charles and camilla attacked

Monkeymatt · 10 Dec 2010 at 21:07

I will be going to University most likely in a couple of years and so am not really in favour of the plans. However what has happened there is truly a disgrace. Not only did they attack the Royal Family, but they also sprayed stuff all over the statue of Winston Churchill, one of Britians greatest war hero's.

Now personally, I wouldn't class this as a freedom of speech, but much rather as an act of Treason. And personally, would be glad to see the Army called in to stop these Hippies.

Now before somebody even suggests I am biased, yes I am biased, TOWARDS their cause due to me having to pay more when I go to Uni, but this isn't the right away to go about it.

Strife212 · 10 Dec 2010 at 21:09

scorza said:
Crikey you really are naive if you believe that the student loans company are going to loan people money that they know will never be paid back.

There is no consideration whatsoever taken about ability to repay. There is no obligation to repay either, the loan just gets written off after 25 years.

I'm at Uni now and I couldn't really give a damn if the fees were 10 million pounds a year, because the loan company pays it for you, and theres no deadline for repayment.

scorza · 10 Dec 2010 at 21:29

Strife212 said:
There is no consideration whatsoever taken about ability to repay. There is no obligation to repay either, the loan just gets written off after 25 years.

I'm at Uni now and I couldn't really give a damn if the fees were 10 million pounds a year, because the loan company pays it for you, and theres no deadline for repayment.

And you really think that's a workable system? Get real, it's not, the government know it's not and there will be a plan to change it after the system is in place.

The thing I find absolutely hilarious (if it weren't so tragic) is that we're recovering from the worst economic crisis in living memory (some might say ever) that was caused by banks lending toxic loans. So now we're hopefully back on the right track, what do we do? do we learn our lessons? No, we create a system whereby the government will be giving out even more toxic loans and encouraging responsible young people to take on massive amounts of debt.

csmager · 10 Dec 2010 at 21:34

scorza said:
And you really think that's a workable system? Get real, it's not, the government know it's not and there will be a plan to change it after the system is in place.

Of course it's a workable system. Do you think they just arbitrarily came up with some numbers without doing any modelling? Why would they want to introduce a system they already want to change? How does that make sense?

The thing I find absolutely hilarious (if it weren't so tragic) is that we're recovering from the worst economic crisis in living memory (some might say ever) that was caused by banks lending toxic loans. So now we're hopefully back on the right track, what do we do? do we learn our lessons? No, we create a system whereby the government will be giving out even more toxic loans and encouraging responsible young people to take on massive amounts of debt.

It's not really taking on any debt in any normal sense of the word. It's simply a graduate tax with an end stop of either what you owe (which relates directly to your course) or 30 years.

Danthus · 10 Dec 2010 at 21:38

scorza said:
And you really think that's a workable system? Get real, it's not, the government know it's not and there will be a plan to change it after the system is in place.

The thing I find absolutely hilarious (if it weren't so tragic) is that we're recovering from the worst economic crisis in living memory (some might say ever) that was caused by banks lending toxic loans. So now we're hopefully back on the right track, what do we do? do we learn our lessons? No, we create a system whereby the government will be giving out even more toxic loans and encouraging responsible young people to take on massive amounts of debt.

So how would you pay for it?

scorza · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:04

csmager said:
Of course it's a workable system. Do you think they just arbitrarily came up with some numbers without doing any modelling? Why would they want to introduce a system they already want to change? How does that make sense?

Yes, that's what they do all the time - that the sums quite obviously don't add up at this stage should raise a big red warning flag*. If you want to make an unpopular change then you don't just make it, you nudge people and get them used to the idea first. When I went to university the idea of paying for your education was unthinkable, so they nudged us toward the idea of student loans - first to replace the maintenance grant, then for small tuition fees. Now they want students to take on huge debts, well they need some way of saying "it won't be that bad, you'll pay less than you do at the moment despite education being more expensive". Then a couple of years down the line, "sorry guys, too many people aren't paying their loans off - we need to make a few small modifications to ensure everyone pays their debts in full".

It's like when they wanted to introduce road charging, let's take a busy section of motorway, build a relief road and charge people a small amount of money to get them used to it. The result was the M6 toll, opened in 2003 with a perfectly reasonable charge of £2 for a car. Seven years later, the charge is £5 - the business was simply non viable with the initial charge, they had to raise the prices but if we had been told it was going to cost £5 in the first place the M6 toll would never have been built as the opposition would have been stronger.

csmager said:
It's not really taking on any debt in any normal sense of the word. It's simply a graduate tax with an end stop of either what you owe (which relates directly to your course) or 30 years.

Debt is debt however you look at it. If it wasn't a big deal the government wouldn't be keen to push the debt off its books and onto students.

* Edit - the government have already been caught out once with this and been forced to include a concession guaranteeing that the £21k a year threshold will rise in line with inflation for the next five years.

Castiel · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:05

Monkey Puzzle said:
Getting back to your "people who don't share my view are ignorant and stupid" argument I see!

"zero debt and unlimited liability"? Forgive my ignorance and explain that one to me please.

Will the debt not rack up pretty quickly for people not paying it back, since the interest is 3% above base rate isn't it? Whilst graduates may not have to pay back the money whilst their wage is less than 27k, the interest on their hefty debt continues to accumulate. It matters little if the debt would be struck off after 30 years if you happen to fall in the pay bracket where you take 25 years to pay off a snowballing debt.

The average wage of graduates exceeds that of those who didn't go to university. Graduates will tend to pay back more in tax to fund their education anyhow, and putting graduates into debt at the start of their careers further exacerbates the difficulty getting onto the property ladder and starting a family. I would have rather they just increased funding for universities from the tax pot and abandom the ridiculous arbitrary expansion of higher education places.

Hmmm, the debt doesn't continue to accumulate interest whilst you are not in a position to repay it. It is frozen, as for how the debt is made up, I suggest you actually find out what you are talking about before you accuse me of unfairly calling you ignorant or stupid. :rolleyes:

Also the zero debt, unlimited liability refers to a Graduate Tax, not the proposed fees system. Please read the context of the post before hijacking another's (unfounded as it turned out) allegation toward me. Thanks.

scorza · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:14

Castiel said:
Hmmm, the debt doesn't continue to accumulate interest whilst you are not in a position to repay it. It is frozen, as for how the debt is made up, I suggest you actually find out what you are talking about before you accuse me of unfairly calling you ignorant or stupid as that doesn't need me to point out obviously.

This is a genuine question here as I don't know the answer, but if you're a graduate earning £22k a year, the government have said you'll be paying let's say £400 a year back. However as you're repaying your accumulating interest. I made an assumption earlier that the starting rate of interest would be RPI + 0.5 % (5% at today's RPI). Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean on your debt of £27k, you haven't even covered the interest charge on your loan?

Dolph · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:16

scorza said:
This is a genuine question here as I don't know the answer, but if you're a graduate earning £22k a year, the government have said you'll be paying let's say £400 a year back. However as you're repaying your accumulating interest. I made an assumption earlier that the starting rate of interest would be RPI + 0.5 % (5% at today's RPI). Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean on your debt of £27k, you haven't even covered the interest charge on your loan?

Perhaps not, but then you can never reduce your 'debt' under a graduate tax, because the liability is uncapped, so I'm not sure why this is a concern.

csmager · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:17

Isn't the starting rate of interest 0%?

BBC News said:
The subsidised interest rate at which the repayments are made - currently 1.5% - will be raised. Under a "progressive tapering" system, the interest rate will rise from 0 for incomes of £21,000, to 3% plus inflation (RPI) for incomes above £41,000.

Castiel · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:23

scorza said:
This is a genuine question here as I don't know the answer, but if you're a graduate earning £22k a year, the government have said you'll be paying let's say £400 a year back. However as you're repaying your accumulating interest. I made an assumption earlier that the starting rate of interest would be RPI + 0.5 % (5% at today's RPI). Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean on your debt of £27k, you haven't even covered the interest charge on your loan?

The link to earnings will mitigate that somewhat as time progresses. I would like to see the interest linked to CPI instead of RPI, but I would imagine they would also used CPI to adjust the income brackets also which would defeat the point.

Dolph pointed out also that the size of the principle is largely irrelevant to lower earners as it is written off after a set period so as per your example even if the principle is static or even growing you are still paying 9% of your income and not a penny more. In this it is exactly the same as a graduate tax and so you should understand it is of no real import given that the debt ceases after 30 years anyway.

scorza · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:24

csmager said:
Isn't the starting rate of interest 0%?

The issue here is that we don't know what the rate of interest will be when you start paying your student loan back i.e. at >£21k, apart from it will be between 0 and RPI+3% (currently 7.5%). It's difficult therefore to say how progressive this scheme really is.

scorza · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:33

Castiel said:
You are always repaying 9% of the debt including interest, so at 5% total interest you are still repaying 4% of the principle. The amount repaid off of the principle gets smaller the higher the interest rate and the higher your earnings, thus the higher earner helps to subsidise the shortfall of the lower earner.

How that will work if the RPI +3% is larger than 9% then it will need to be addressed, however the link to earnings will mitigate that somewhat as time progresses. I would like to see the interest linked to CPI instead of RPI, but I would imagine they would also used CPI to adjust the income brackets also which would defeat the point.

£400 isn't 9% of £27k, so that simply doesn't make sense. If I have a debt of £27k, and I pay back £400 (<£8 a week like the minister said), what is my outstanding balance at the end of Year 1 taking into account that interest will have been added.

Castiel · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:36

scorza said:
£400 isn't 9% of £27k, so that simply doesn't make sense. If I have a debt of £27k, and I pay back £400 (<£8 a week like the minister said), what is my outstanding balance at the end of Year 1 taking into account that interest will have been added.

I know, my bad. I have since edited as I made the mistake of applying the repayment percentage to the principle and not income.

Apologies. I'll chuck some figures together properly and see what we have.

Xyanzi · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:39

I must protest GD!
My blood boils when all the media, police and news coverage blames the students!
I'm Glad the students are rebeling towards this act of "LIES" of what Nick Clegg said he would diminish...
Why on Earth would a government put the burden of the UK's **** Economy on students who HAVE NOT HAD A SAY IN THIS WHAT SO EVER?
OLD MEN WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL: oh hehe we in a problem here... OH I KNOW lets make our young generation fix it cause we cannot BE BOTHERED!
Students: We want a chance at life like everyone else WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO REPAY WHAT YOU DID!
OLD MEN WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL: IM OLDER RESPECT ME

You know what **** off students dont deserve this... if anything they should Force all the millionaires to pay off most the debt... Oh wait I FORGOT THE GOVERNMENT IS TOO ****ING SCARED........
I dont give a flying toss if this gets deleted or i get banned its a freedom of speach... Something this country seems to have a lot off... its a shame its only one minded.

DM · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:40

Xyanzi said:
I must protest GD!
My blood boils when all the media, police and news coverage blames the students!
I'm Glad the students are rebeling towards this act of "LIES" of what Nick Clegg said he would diminish...
Why on Earth would a government put the burden of the UK's **** Economy on students who HAVE NOT HAD A SAY IN THIS WHAT SO EVER?
OLD MEN WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL: oh hehe we in a problem here... OH I KNOW lets make our young generation fix it cause we cannot BE BOTHERED!
Students: We want a chance at life like everyone else WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO REPAY WHAT YOU DID!
OLD MEN WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL: IM OLDER RESPECT ME

You know what **** off students dont deserve this... if anything they should Force all the millionaires to pay off most the debt... Oh wait I FORGOT THE GOVERNMENT IS TOO ****ING SCARED........
I dont give a flying toss if this gets deleted or i get banned its a freedom of speach... Something this country seems to have a lot off... its a shame its only one minded.

Oh do shut up idiot and get a clue.

Xyanzi · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:42

DiamondMark said:
Oh do shut up idiot and get a clue.

oh look an old man who thinks he knows it all.. why dont you tell me what ive said wrong?? cause this rise of fees is only a dent into the 4 trillion we owe...

Glaucus · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:45

Xyanzi said:
oh look an old man who thinks he knows it all.. why dont you tell me what ive said wrong?? .

Where to start, it's obe big emotional ramble that is all wrong.
What do you expect 4trillion to be cut from one area. Pretty much eveything is being cut

Xyanzi · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:45

All im saying is why should we "students" have to suffer from burdens the older generation make... When there are clearly more better ways to deal with it...
i dont believe its fair on us, and all the ministers/ bankers should get fired.
you cant crash boat and blame the fish.

chumpit · 10 Dec 2010 at 22:46

Anyone watching the student union prat on bbc two atmoment trying to pass the blame onto the police, se wont answer the simple question of "why would peacefull protestors bring snookerballs to a protest?"

It quiet funny watching her squirm..

Xyanzi said:
All im saying is why should we "students" have to suffer from burdens the older generation make... When there are clearly more better ways to deal with it...
i dont believe its fair on us, and all the ministers/ bankers should get fired.
you cant crash boat and blame the fish.

So when your old and need a pension can we quote why should the young pay for you to live?