Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [2nd - 5th March 2012]

Van Persie is a 'traditional' out and out striker.

Messi and Ronaldo are not, and Rooney is not.

Van persie has NEVER and will never be a traditional out and out striker, even suggesting he's an out and out striker suggests you don't have a clue what you're talking about. No Arsenal fan, or any sensible person that had seen RVP play since he joined Arsenal would call him an out and out striker, not one.

All of a sudden as of 6 months ago people started claiming RVP has nothing more to his game than finishing, its all of a sudden fact because that is how Arsenal needs him to play in this formation right now.
 
I don't give a **** about Arsenal tbh. My reply was simply in response to an attitude that some people seem to have that I do not understand.....that strikers have to do more than score goals.

I dont necessarily think they need to do more and obviously you cant play down a singular contribution in a game if that contribution is a goal (or in RVP's case today 2 goals) but when you start comparing a player with Messi & Ronaldo then I think the player really needs to touch the ball more than twice in a game even if those two touches result in scoring goals (I realise I'm exaggerating).

I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself but the Arsenal fans will get upset if I dont, RVP is lethal in front of goal this season, prolific but take just today's game who was involved more RVP or Suarez? Who deserved a goal for their efforts more out of the two? Saying anything remotely positive about Suarez doesn't come easy to me but I do think on days like this the praise for RVP does go a little OTT
 
I'd take Puyol over Agger or Skrtel by a long, long way. Pique, not so much.

I think the chemistry between them is too good when they are together, usually let down by what is infront of them or rb/lb.

God it was painful watching Carra for both those goals.
 
Van persie has NEVER and will never be a traditional out and out striker, even suggesting he's an out and out striker suggests you don't have a clue what you're talking about. No Arsenal fan, or any sensible person that had seen RVP play since he joined Arsenal would call him an out and out striker, not one.

All of a sudden as of 6 months ago people started claiming RVP has nothing more to his game than finishing, its all of a sudden fact because that is how Arsenal needs him to play in this formation right now.

Calm down DM. At the moment he's more of an out and out striker than Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. They all do considerably more than he does. I know he hasn't always been a striker, and he can play in other roles, but the way he plays at the moment for whatever reason makes him an out and out striker as far as I'm concerned.

Surely you can see that. Or maybe not. ;)
 
Calm down DM. At the moment he's more of an out and out striker than Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. They all do considerably more than he does. I know he hasn't always been a striker, and he can do other roles, but the way he plays at the moment for whatever reason makes him an out and out striker as far as I'm concerned.

Surely you can see that. Or maybe not. ;)

There is a WORLD of difference between saying a player IS a traditional out and out striker, and a player is currently playing as a out and out striker.

You said the former first time, second time, you said the latter. First is completely incorrect, second bang on.

Owen and RVN are "out and out striker", ask them to drop into Messi, or Cesc role and they'd be laughably poor. RVP currently players up top and has the discipline to both stay there and improve that part of his game, ask him to drop into the Messi or Cesc role, he wouldn't be as practiced or at the same level, but he could do both roles admirably and given a while to adjust he would end up world class(not necessarily Cesc or Messi level) in either position, thats the difference, RVP has every aspect to his game required for any creative attacking or flat out finishing role, Owen/RVN don't.

LIkewise if Messi or Ronaldo were asked to play lone striker and not drop deep and just get goals, both could also. Players capability and the role they play in a particular team or at a particular time aren't the same thing.
 
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Think the excitement got to you a bit too much, Van Persie is an excellent finisher, but nowhere near Ronaldo or Messi in terms of overall ability. Regardless of where Messi or Ronaldo are on the pitch, they have the ability to make even the best defenders look amateur and score brilliant goals.

Van Persie doesn't have the same effect when he is on the ball, he has a brilliant eye for goal yes, but can he get the ball on the half way line and blitz world class defences apart.. Sadly not.

Think the excitement got to you a bit too much, Van Persie is an excellent finisher, but nowhere near Ronaldo or Messi in terms of overall ability. Regardless of where Messi or Ronaldo are on the pitch, they have the ability to make even the best defenders look amateur and score brilliant goals.

Van Persie doesn't have the same effect when he is on the ball, he has a brilliant eye for goal yes, but can he get the ball on the half way line and blitz world class defences apart.. Sadly not.

That's because he's got no legs lol.

Messi's style of play is generally, to take players on with the ball glued to his feet, and then a combition of crazy good dribbling, bouncing off defenders and his twisting and turning unbalancing them, gets him through on goal, which he then usually tucks away mostly through precise finishes around/over the keeper. He scores the odd header or peach from just outside the box. With him it's all about control at speed, which is why people love watching him.

Ronaldo is more brute force and uses his acceleration and first touch to get himself in space and away from players, also good at holding players off, and then his goals tend to be more of a mix of right/left/headers/rockets from distance (and free kicks, but less this year). He really doesn't go through defences like Messi, he tends find ways around them. They're quite different players. Ronaldo is fun to watch because he'll charge down the flanks, do some elaborate flick to another player then score a bullet from an improbable distance.

In terms of what they have in common other than the scoring and watchability factor is the acceleration, speed and ability to find/make space. RVP has no speed or acceleration and isn't anywhere near the 'license to roam' free player who can do what he wants, he's more reliant on getting himself in good positions to do his thing, so for that reason he's more of a one-trick pony (albeit a world class one). His control on the ball is out of this world, it's just he's not a leggy run-at-players player so obviously fares unfavourably compared to both of them. His goals have been quite a good mixture of curlers/volleys/tap ins/headers/free kicks/distance/tight angle. He has beaten the odd defender (see goals against Blackburn, Inter etc), but if comparing Ronaldo/Messi is like apples/oranges, then Van Persie is a strawberry.

To be compared truly IMO, he'd need to do what he's done this last year every year, which is why those two occupy the lofty positions they do. If he'd have not been crocked for so much of so many seasons, perhaps he would be, but it's just speculation.
 
who do Bayern even have these days? Lahm, Badstuber and Neuer in goal are the only ones I can think of defensively?
 
There is a WORLD of difference between saying a player IS a traditional out and out striker, and a player is currently playing as a out and out striker.

You said the former first time, second time, you said the latter. First is completely incorrect, second bang on.

Well he is currently playing like a traditional out and out striker, you could interrupt Robbo's first post that way.
 
People really seem to forget what RVP can do just because he's been scoring a lot for Arsenal for a year. He didn't start off at Arsenal as a striker, but more of a winger, his first great goals often came by way of dribbling round a bunch of players and scoring a ridiculous goal from a stupid angle having come up the wing then run into the box and shot.

He's an excellent passer, great vision, used to be great at freekicks. He use to play almost exclusively in a Bergkamp style withdrawn striker role and before that as a winger and he was excellent at both, his WHOLE game is very very very good, a great goal scoring record is something he's picked up in the past couple years and thats from playing in a team where he has to stay upfront on his own, isolated without any support most of the time.

Just because he's playing one way in a certain formation now doesn't mean that is all he's capable of.

Very true and to expand on that this is my point with RVP at the moment, yes he's scoring all the goals but is his all round game as good as it used to be? I dont think it, but that's because his role in the team at the moment is limiting it. If he had more freedom he probably wouldn't be scoring as many goals. Fact is there's a payoff in either role you give him and for those comparing him with Ronaldo and Messi they dont really suffer the same in that their all round game is about as complete as it can be in any position you put them in on the pitch
 
There is a WORLD of difference between saying a player IS a traditional out and out striker, and a player is currently playing as a out and out striker.

You said the former first time, second time, you said the latter. First is completely incorrect, second bang on.

Well he is currently playing like a traditional out and out striker, you could interpret Robbo's first post that way.

Exactly, that's what I meant. I was talking about his role more than his general attributes.

The point is, comparing anyone to Messi and Ronaldo is rather stupid as they are both so ridiculously good that it isn't even fair. The likes of RvP and Rooney are all behind them somewhere, but there is a fairly large gap.
 
I'd take Agger+Skrtel over Puyol+Pique anyday, Reina over Valdes and Enrique if he wasn't so poor in attack. Think Dani Alves would be the only one I'd definately take and thats probably just due to his attacking threat.

And City's CB's+Hart.

I'll admit I think Pique is rather over-rated, but Puyol is a very good defender. A year or two ago, I would have put Reina over Valdes however Reina seems to have lost abit of his class recently so I would put Valdes ahead of him. Haven't seen that much of Enrique so can't comment.

But back to the premier league, Norwich 0-0 Stoke at half time, going to be a tough match but hopefully we can scrape the 3 points. Howson seems to be doing well on debut, which is good especially as he has never played in the prem.
 
I'll admit I think Pique is rather over-rated, but Puyol is a very good defender. A year or two ago, I would have put Reina over Valdes however Reina seems to have lost abit of his class recently so I would put Valdes ahead of him. Haven't seen that much of Enrique so can't comment.

But back to the premier league, Norwich 0-0 Stoke at half time, going to be a tough match but hopefully we can scrape the 3 points. Howson seems to be doing well on debut, which is good especially as he has never played in the prem.

To be honest Valdes really isn't that good, and Reina's distribution and getting those huge counter attacks going is pretty vital.

No guarentee with Puyol he'd have the chemistry with Agger/Skrtel if they were beside him that they do and they are both more valuable than him, hypothetical situation probably not worth thinking about as there is no clear answer.
 
I don't know why people still group Ronaldo with Messi, Ronaldo is in with the rabble behind Messi.
In fairness Messi is slightly ahead of Ronaldo in terms of overall quality, not so much in terms of overall output, but both are on a different planet compared to everyone else. Putting Ronaldo in with the same group of players as RVP, Rooney, Ibrahe'sabitch and a whole host of world class players would be very unfair to him.
 
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I don't know why people still group Ronaldo with Messi, Ronaldo is in with the rabble behind Messi.

I don't think so. They are both very different types of player, and while Messi is definitely better, Ronaldo can be more of a force in some circumstances.
 
It's hard to say I suppose, I watch them both a lot and I just can't get into Ronaldo that much, he makes so many bad decisions which hold him back a lot imo, I guess the fact that nobody ever gets near him in Spain makes him constantly think 'may as well have a shot then' which is fair enough. La Liga is skewing both players though, the distance between RM/Barca (even though they don't have RM's squad) and the rest of the league makes their games almost moot, there's hardly any point to them
 
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