Boeing 777 shot down

Craterloads · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:44

[TW]Fox;26621960 said:
Apparently not, given that its obvious the 777 wouldnt have been the intended target.

Even getting the thing to fire would be an achievement without advance knowledge of the system.

Firestar_3x · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:45

Tefal said:
what resources, a computer?

black boxes aren't exactly complicated they're an ssd in a really really good case.

Just LOL!

First off you need specialist equipment designed to read the boxes, the Russians have tried to edit flight recorder data before iirc and got busted.

Secondly all but the latest flight recorders use SSD's, they use tapes.

Westyfield2 · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:45

Booner! said:
Does this mean we are going to hear an altered series of events seeing as they are being held as the most likely culprit and now have the black box. Surely they don't have the resources to properly work with that black box...

Yep

. The Ukrainian government really needed to get their hands on it first.

Craterloads · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:46

Tefal said:
they're irregular troops, not ****ing monkeys.

who do you think operates our military equipment, highly trained PHD graduates or the guys who typically didn't do all that great at their gcses?

??? Wut

I would assume trained personnel who have been trained / taught to use said equipment...

ubersonic · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:47

Craterloads said:
Can the rebels even operate sophisticated equipment like the BUK system? Clearly your average rebel wouldn't have a clue.

A lot of rebels are defectors from the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian military are the ones that operate Ukraine's Buk systems like the ones rebels captured in June.

Craterloads said:
Even getting the thing to fire would be an achievement without advance knowledge of the system.

Not to sound like a jerk, but they do come with manuals like a car.

Xordium · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:48

A black box is not going to tell you who fired the missile is it. That is the crucial question and the black box will be no help in that regard.

Ayahuasca · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:49

Tefal said:
who do you think operates our military equipment, highly trained PHD graduates or the guys who typically didn't do all that great at their gcses?

For our anti air systems I'm pretty sure you need certain grades to get into that job role.

Jegethy · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:50

Although this is tragic news, I can't help but think of the tragic news to come in the aftermath of this and the already volatile situation in the Ukraine.

Nico_Joey · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:51

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
But honestly why were commericial airliners even allowed to fly over the area??

Afaik, they had a 10'00ft restriction as that was out of range of the MAnPAD systems the rebels would known to have (7'500ft).

Mynight · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:51

I thought the majority of military kit was idiot proof. Not that they're idiots but to limit the amount of training specific kit needed.

Adam · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:51

What are the possible next steps after this happening? Would there be any action against Russia given the rebels were pro-Russian? I'm also not sure who would organise and administer any action, possibly the UN? What can they do?

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:51

The UK has hardly any SAM defences now.We have a declining number of Rapier low level systems and some Starsteak and Starburst MANPADs,and our most capable system is the ASTER one aboard the Type 45 destroyers.

Craterloads · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:52

ubersonic said:
A lot of rebels are defectors from the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian military are the ones that operate Ukraine's Buk systems like the ones rebels captured in June.

Not to sound like a jerk, but they do come with manuals like a car.

Doubt it would be that simple, but like you said defectors perhaps may have had training.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:55

The thing is even if a Buk system is the system confirmed as the one which was used,the question moves over onto who used it??

We will say the separatists and the separatists will say the Ukranian military.

The thing is both sides had access to the same systems.

It will be more finger pointing I suspect and more rhetoric.

Westyfield2 · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:55

Igor Girkin on the VKontakte social network: "We just downed an An-26 near Torez. It's down somewhere near Progress mine, We had warned them not to fly in 'our sky'"

Freefaller · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:56

ubersonic said:
To be honest when I look up and see a plane at that height all I see is a vapour trial.

Be honest, if you were waging a civil war and repeatedly being attacked by your enemies air force then one day you detected a plane in your airspace (a designated no fly zone) would your first thought be that it was military or that some airline had decided to cut costs by routing a 777 over your no fly zone?

If there is doubt I personally wouldn't pull the trigger - but I'm not a war monger.

I accept it might have been "hard" to spot, and I agree that the plane probably should have been routed by ATC around Ukraine - but at the same time a military plane would have bee flying lower surely?

And if you do cause a monumental life/world altering blunder then irrespective of disagreements or politics, you should come forward, and accept that you pretty much started a massive international incident.

That's the problem with these factions, they take responsibility, but don't come forward to take the punishment for it - so brave these people...

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Sadly like in the Iran Air and KAL 007 incidents the same excuses were made for the incompetence of the people involved!

Edit!!

But honestly why were commericial airliners even allowed to fly over the area??

Indeed it does seem daft, but I'm *sure* they can tell the difference between a military plane and not - all you need to do is tap into the ATC radar/airwaves.... if you wanted intel. Furthermore, if you were in intelligence then surely you'd be aware of it being a passenger plane.

I'm starting to believe it might have been intentional

Just think - if each of those 295 people knew just 10 people, that's thousands upon thousands of people that will have a massive emptiness in their lives.

It is so tragic

sniffy · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:57

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
The thing is even if a Buk system is the system confirmed as the one which was used,the question moves over onto who used it??

We will say the separatists and the separatists will say the Ukranian military.

The thing is both sides had access to the same systems.

It will be more finger pointing I suspect and more rhetoric.

I imagine the Americans have more satellites on that area of the country than you can shake a stick at. Hopefully they got something.

dowie · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:57

Freefaller said:
Well... Of course.

Okay perhaps my post should have said whoever is responsible. Either way such a loss of innocent lives. Because apparently a passenger plane looks like a military plane :/

Many many countries will be affected by this. I feel so sad for those affected.

at 10,000 meters it does... no 'apparently' about it really - its just a blip on the radar/tiny plane shaped object in the sky

if it is the rebels then presumably no contact with air traffic control... rather reckless of the Russians to simply let them crack on with modern surface to air missiles - otherwise if it is Russian SF then rather worrying lack of communications.... could possibly be Ukrainians even... I think its unlikely though that anyone deliberately downed a passenger plane.

Nico_Joey · 17 Jul 2014 at 19:58

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
The thing is even if a Buk system is the system confirmed as the one which was used,the question moves over onto who used it??

We will say the separatists and the separatists will say the Ukranian military.

The thing is both sides had access to the same systems.

It will be more finger pointing I suspect and more rhetoric.

If the satellite images can be found for that area, the trail can be traced, at 33'000ft its a hellva long trail behind the missle pointing directly at who fired it.

Freefaller · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:01

dowie said:
at 10,000 meters it does... no 'apparently' about it really - its just a blip on the radar/tiny plane shaped object in the sky

if it is the rebels then presumably no contact with air traffic control... rather reckless of the Russians to simply let them crack on with modern surface to air missiles - otherwise if it is Russian SF then rather worrying lack of communications.... could possibly be Ukrainians even... I think its unlikely though that anyone deliberately downed a passenger plane.

I still think that if they had the intelligence, they'd know the flight paths or have more information than just a "blip". They should at least radio the plane and tell them to get out of the air space - if they don't comply then perhaps we'd be having a different argument (About the pilot's actions). What's with this shoot first ask question later attitude? No sorry, I just cannot accept this I'm afraid.

Who is going to come forward and accept the deaths of all these people? No one because they don't care. Or, because they knew it was a passenger plane, and are just trying to prove a point. I don't know what is worse though.