Boeing 777 shot down

ubersonic · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:05

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
The thing is even if a Buk system is the system confirmed as the one which was used,the question moves over onto who used it??

We will say the separatists and the separatists will say the Ukranian military.

The thing is both sides had access to the same systems.

Some napkin maths here but... Donetsk Oblast was 10,238 sq miles in size, the Donetsk People's Republic is ~1/4-1/5 that size, so ~2000 sq miles, given the Buks detection and acquisition range (plus the missiles range) if it was the missile used it must have been fired from within the Donetsk People's Republic no?

The plane came down intact but out of control so it can't have travelled that far from the point of impact.

Domo · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:06

Freefaller said:
..I'm *sure* they can tell the difference between a military plane and not - all you need to do is tap into the ATC radar/airwaves.... if you wanted intel. Furthermore, if you were in intelligence then surely you'd be aware of it being a passenger plane.

Intel? I don't think they give a stuff. Probably like a bunch of teenagers who've just brought a giant firework.

They saw a vapour trail where there shouldn't be commercial airliners and they fired at it. There's even a chance they don't give a stuff after realising.

That's if it was the rebels. Could be air to air still. Or even a malfunction. Not sure who all these people are coming forward saying it was shot down.

Azza · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:07

The International Air Transport Association says the plane appeared to be flying through ordinary airspace when it crashed. "Based on the information currently available, it is believed that the airspace that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions," the association said in a statement.

Well...

AndyCroft1982 · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:10

ubersonic said:
Some napkin maths here but... Donetsk Oblast was 10,238 sq miles in size, the Donetsk People's Republic is ~1/4-1/5 that size, so ~2000 sq miles, given the Buks detection and acquisition range (plus the missiles range) if it was the missile used it must have been fired from within the Donetsk People's Republic no?

The plane came down intact but out of control so it can't have travelled that far from the point of impact.

The plane didnt come down intact at all, it came down in bits, some of which were on fire whilst other bits were not. Due to it coming down in bits and scatterd over a distance is why they think it may have been shot down. Are you russian by any chance?

Tom B · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:13

The only party with anything to gain from shooting down a civilian plane is the Ukrainians. That way they can go: "Look! Russia is giving the rebels heavy weaponry, stop them!"

gettothechopper · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:15

Tom B said:
The only party with anything to gain from shooting down a civilian plane is the Ukrainians. That way they can go: "Look! Russia is giving the rebels heavy weaponry, stop them!"

you are making a massive assumption that whoever shot it down knew it was a civilian airliner

Glaucus · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:19

Tom B said:
The only party with anything to gain from shooting down a civilian plane is the Ukrainians. That way they can go: "Look! Russia is giving the rebels heavy weaponry, stop them!"

R you know the group who admitted responsibility and said it was a military transport plane, which when it came out it was a passenger plane, they deleted their announcements. But nothing gets deleted fully from the net.

There really are some crazy people in here. Everything points to the separatists miss identifying and shooting down a passenger plane. So much so there really should only be two groups. One waiting for more info/investigation and those who think the simplest explanation is the right one, unless investigation shows something else.

ubersonic · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:19

AndyCroft1982 said:
The plane didnt come down intact at all, it came down in bits, some of which were on fire whilst other bits were not.

It's possible to tell from a crash site how a plane came down, if it's a line/arrowhead the plane was under some control, if its just an impact then no control. If the wreckage is confined to a set area it was intact, if it has spread out in a circular area (diameter proportional to the height at which it exploded) it did not.

From the pictures of the crash site the plane was mostly intact but out of control upon crashing, a big givaway is that at least one engine is in the main debris area (if it had come off due to disintegration it would have continued onwards).

delta0 · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:20

There is a recording of Russian intelligence ordering the aircraft be shot down.

[TW]Fox · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:20

Good job we've got ubersonic the expert here to set the record straight. Tell us more about the 'No fly Zone' you made up, ubersonic?

ubersonic · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:24

[TW]Fox;26622194 said:
Good job we've got ubersonic the expert here to set the record straight. Tell us more about the 'No fly Zone' you made up, ubersonic?

Well basically fox, the people in control of that area of Ukraine (known as the Donetsk People's Republic) made it clear some time ago that their airspace was a no fly zone (works out well for them as they only have like 2 planes) and any intruders would be shot down, hence why they have been shooting down military aircraft there and now apparently this.

Ayahuasca · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:25

delta0 said:
There is a recording of Russian intelligence ordering the aircraft be shot down.

Well if that's true things will definitely escalate.

Danthus · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:25

delta0 said:
There is a recording of Russian intelligence ordering the aircraft be shot down.

Red sauce, brown sauce and tartar sauce please.

snips86x · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:26

The Ukrainian Security Service SBU has published on its Youtube account what it says are intercepted conversations between pro-Russian militants in which they say they admit shooting down a civilian plane, BBC Monitoring reports

bloodiedathame · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:27

Things will escalate then everyone will realise there isn't a thing that they can do to Russia.

Pestilence · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:31

Ayahuasca said:
Well if that's true things will definitely escalate.

Indeed. If that is true... well, buckle your seatbelts, folks.

Dis86 · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:31

Ayahuasca said:
For our anti air systems I'm pretty sure you need certain grades to get into that job role.

You'd be wrong. RAF regiment who used to operate our rapiers were in most cases some of the dumbest men I've met

Ayahuasca · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:32

Dis86 said:
You'd be wrong. RAF regiment who used to operate our rapiers were in most cases some of the dumbest men I've met

Not saying they weren't dumb, but you need GCSE's to get into the RAF don't you?

I've met people with PhD's who are just as dumb, not quite sure what his point was.

Freefaller · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:35

Domo said:
Intel? I don't think they give a stuff. Probably like a bunch of teenagers who've just brought a giant firework.

They saw a vapour trail where there shouldn't be commercial airliners and they fired at it. There's even a chance they don't give a stuff after realising.

That's if it was the rebels. Could be air to air still. Or even a malfunction. Not sure who all these people are coming forward saying it was shot down.

You could be right on all of those counts. However as emotive as this is I think all we can do is wait and find out who is responsible.

It's tragic either way.

Dis86 · 17 Jul 2014 at 20:37

Ayahuasca said:
Not saying they weren't dumb, but you need GCSE's to get into the RAF don't you?

I've met people with PhD's who are just as dumb, not quite sure what his point was.

Not in to regiment you didn't.