Actually the only obvious thing is that a plane has crashed and that a missile may have been involved, anything further is hearsay and speculation, hence why we should wait for the facts like they seem to be.
Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar
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Actually the only obvious thing is that a plane has crashed and that a missile may have been involved, anything further is hearsay and speculation, hence why we should wait for the facts like they seem to be.
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http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-160-the-battle-for-the-donbass-intensifies/
More evidence of Putin's increasing desperation as more of Ukraine is recaptured, firing artillery from Russia into East Ukraine and openly re-supplying the rebels with heavy weapons.
More evidence of Putin's increasing desperation as more of Ukraine is recaptured, firing artillery from Russia into East Ukraine and openly re-supplying the rebels with heavy weapons.
For me, this is the truth of what is going on in and around the Ukraine.
20m 10s in if you want to play embedded.
Or externally direct link:
http://youtu.be/pYxqCZ7IoFk?t=20m10s
20m 10s in if you want to play embedded.
Or externally direct link:
http://youtu.be/pYxqCZ7IoFk?t=20m10s
Just a brain.
I used to think that I lived in a country with freedom of the press and TV, however since the MH17 crisis, any information which contradicts the evil Putin rhetoric provided by Cameron and amplified by the press is just not reported.
I watched a Russian press conference by 5 star generals who showed satellite images, radar tracking of MH17 (including a Ukrainian fighter plane nearby) etc which seemed, on the face of it, to be a compelling evidence that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian forces.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...g-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
I waited with baited breath to see the UK news reaction and was amazed that after more than a week, it has not even been mentioned. All reporting of the war in East Ukraine has also stopped.
Europe is surrounded by a masses of oil and gas, however over the years, due to US led foreign policy and wars, each of these sources has been cut off (Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria) until we have Russia as our sole supplier. So it appears utterly insane that Europe led by our government is trying to remove our only source of energy. It's like lemmings rushing to jump off a cliff.
Russia represents 9.5% of the EU's world trade and if we lose this overnight it will immediately push Europe into a depression. Added to this would be power cuts, rocketing energy prices and deaths of the elderly from hypothermia.
A momentum is building which may even lead to war.
I am no fan of Putin, but I grew up during the Cold War and I remember the 4 minute warning. This the time between a Russian ICBM being detected and its detonation. I think that the instruction at the time was to turn on the radio or TV for news. It turned out years later that the government had selected Morcombe and Wise for our final delectation.
I thought that these days were over
I watched a Russian press conference by 5 star generals who showed satellite images, radar tracking of MH17 (including a Ukrainian fighter plane nearby) etc which seemed, on the face of it, to be a compelling evidence that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian forces.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...g-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
I waited with baited breath to see the UK news reaction and was amazed that after more than a week, it has not even been mentioned. All reporting of the war in East Ukraine has also stopped.
Europe is surrounded by a masses of oil and gas, however over the years, due to US led foreign policy and wars, each of these sources has been cut off (Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria) until we have Russia as our sole supplier. So it appears utterly insane that Europe led by our government is trying to remove our only source of energy. It's like lemmings rushing to jump off a cliff.
Russia represents 9.5% of the EU's world trade and if we lose this overnight it will immediately push Europe into a depression. Added to this would be power cuts, rocketing energy prices and deaths of the elderly from hypothermia.
A momentum is building which may even lead to war.
I am no fan of Putin, but I grew up during the Cold War and I remember the 4 minute warning. This the time between a Russian ICBM being detected and its detonation. I think that the instruction at the time was to turn on the radio or TV for news. It turned out years later that the government had selected Morcombe and Wise for our final delectation.
I thought that these days were over
Was that Russian footage the big powerpoint one on RT?
Russia Today is very much a propaganda channel that is purely run from the Kremlin.
Is your point that RT shouldn't have reported on the official Russian military findings either, and just ignored it like most of the western media?
Don't you find it strange that it's mostly been ignored rather than debunked, and that the US State Department is asking people to look at non-officially verified social media video clips, and that the big media (along with Cameron) is just parroting their claims and demonizing Putin any chance they get?
I'm no fan of Putin either (or politicians in general) but I have to say I'm a big fan of the restraint he is showing (thank God) so far in the face of all these attacks and sanctions etc. Makes him look far more reasonable than any of the leaders in the west.
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EU/US and Russia both try to influence Ukraine politics and economy in different directions via subversive methods.
Country tears itself apart helped to various degrees by the 2 different external influences.
Country now split between pro-Russian (Eastern side of the country and Crimea) and pro-EU factions who randomly chuck military ordnance at each other.
Someone accidentally shoots down a civilian airliner.
US/EU try to use sanctions against Russia to get them to back off Ukraine.
EDIT: I think thats the main bits of it the rest is mostly background noise.
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I asked this question before giving my opinion as I lived in both countries for many years and got friends in Ukraine (both EU supporters and so called pro-Russians) and Russia...
I read through couple pages here and kinda gave information on what I read here...bit messy and not well structures as too many things to say but no much time...plus writting from a tablet LOL
People who do not have any knowledge on both countries and bit of politics should not get involved in this topic at all in my opinion to avoind misleading other people!
People should understand that today's Kiev's government came to power with violence, protest were way too many months (EU supporters) and it should have been stopped on early stage. All brainwash of bright future in Europe was misleading to all those poor people who want to live better life. (Ukraine already had peaceful revolution 4/5 years ago).
What Europe can give to Ukraine and what Ukraine can give to Europe? Nothing, unless Europe wants to pay Ukrainian debts of gas and other resources to Russia which are Millions of Dollars! Before this happened no one knew Ukraine existed!
Those who saying about Soviet regime, etc. are wrong ... If Russia was controlling Ukraine it would control all other countries which were in USSR.
Ukraine is separate country for many years with own government etc.
Yanukovich supported Russia only because he knew he is most powerful politic in the world and Russia is best ally Ukraine can get (geographically, military and resources), Plus speak same language and are brother nations!
When people say they got rid of Corrupt government (president Yanukovich) they should ask, will new government be honest and not corrupt and better?
So back to violence, when it's all started...first casualties, etc. everyone blamed Ukrainian "berkut" forces for killing civilians, however what they did were protecting government and not attacking and only after it went too far from right sector they were ordered to defend President (Country) which was military duty.
On Crimea!Kiev's government never came with peace and elections like Crimea did. (historically Crimea is Russian territory and was given to Ukraine after WW2), what people in Crimea did, they had elections and voted to unite again with Russia because they were not happy with Kiev's government) which was fair... You can't say that Russia took Crimea as they never did, Crimea asked permission of Russian president to have an elections and after majority (%) voted to unite with Russia it became part of it. Without violence and Russian invasion like some papers state.
and if people say it is not right, they should consider that New Government didn't follow any rule, they just hired bandits, Nazis, fascists and other 100 violent groups to help them to do revolution. and after they took Kiev, many of those hired leaders were found dead...We wonder who killed them?! well they stoped being needed to new government! (EU news never showed it).
-Now what's the situation now? Civil War, daily fights, bombings, casualties!
-What benefits gave new Government and this revolution? Well, Ukraine is divided on two major parts: EU supporters and Pro Russians (even tho half are Ukrainians) and 100's of criminal (uncontrolled) gangs across Country: they do what they want: rape, bully, steal from people, brake in to houses. etc.. Huge damage to Country itself: buildings, etc. which will cost Billions Dollars to rebuild country, Country has no money at all, no pensions...give it time until Winter when it's -20C/-40C...what will happen?!
on MEDIA! All media is covered by US and EU, against Russia goes huge propaganda like after 11th of September against Muslims!
European/ American news don't show Pro-Russian point of view, they don't show violence Kiev’s government do almost daily by bombing civilians...
...What they show is "evidence" taken from SOCIAL MEDIA: Facebook, etc., and say it too all of us and people who don't know about what’s going on obviously going to believe.
...I watch all coverages: US/ EU and Russian ... I have never seen on US or EU news opinions Russia are giving, facts they showing and help they offer and also all questions Russian government ask US/EU media...just ignores completely because it is not beneficial.
After Plane got shot, couple hours later US and Kiev's government pointed on Russia and said they have avoidance (couple days later on US press conference they didn't show them, why?! if they already had avoidance after it happened?
Until there is facts and avoidances you can't blame, but all UK newspaper were with topics: Putin killed my son, Russian terrorists shot plane etc. ... Pro-Russians don't have such weapons at first place, and Russia gave their opinion on that as they showed their evidences that Radars spotted Ukrainian Jet at that time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs
on Putin. long story short he doesn't give d***m on all this sanctions and threads from US!
He is by far smartest politic in this game and will stick to his opinion and rules
, majority who reoly only on US/EU news are against him, but he becomes more and more popular in Russia and ex-USSR countries...US/EU were sponsors of revolution, why?! Why US needs Ukraine?! what for?! Well, Russia is country in the world who can say "NO" to America and is major threat! America is full of debts and if it can block Russia from Europe it will rule in World's Market!
Ukraine is puppet in this game of Kings, Ukraine and Russia are brother countries. Grandparents/ Veterans from WW2 look at this with tears as this cultures are together with Belorussia are one whole! SO all they trying to do is provoke Russian government to start attacking and if Russia do, US can easily start deploying troops and play the game they were before with Syria, etc.
And last but not least 2 days ago, new ukrainan government including Yaycenuk (minister behind revolution, No1 person who was giving speaches on Square, Klitchko and other top politics with their political Parties ennounced that they leave for good.) So basically they prommised better European future for people, made revolution which became civil war...and now just leave...to get away from all this problems)))
I better stop now as if I continue it will be way too long...
as I said I have friends on both sides and listened to both sides too, got many examples, information, etc.
I might sound in here Like I support Russia in here, but I am nutral. just giving information on facts and researches.
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Was that Russian footage the big powerpoint one on RT?
Russia Today is very much a propaganda channel that is purely run from the Kremlin.
A bit like the BBC for UK and most of America's main news stations.
Neither is reliable.
You are a so called pro-Russian
And just because you have friends there doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than some others.
Ukrainian President Yanukovych led his people to believe they were going to get a free trade deal with the EU.
An agreement between the EU and Ukraine was reached but at the last minute Yanukovych decided against signing it. This is generally believed to be because of pressure put on him by Russia. Yanukovych said instead they'd look to join a Eurasian customs union being set up by Russian President Putin.
People in Western Ukraine not happy about this, occupy Maidan square in Kiev. Protests grow but are generally peaceful and tensions rise, culminating with snipers shooting dead lots of people in Maidan square. Most people believe the snipers were a special Berkut unit of Ukrainian police, however other say it was Right Sector, a Ukrainian far right political group which opposes Russia, who performed the shooting as a "false flag" (since they were involved in the Maidan protests in the first place.
In response to the shootings, protests become violent. Ukrainian government loses control of the country, Yanukovych forced to flee. An interim government is established with a clear priority to sort out the basket case Ukrainian economy.
In Crimea, an autonomous region of Ukraine that used to belong to Russia, armed groups seize the parliament there and instill a pro-Russian regime. Uniformed, armed men appear on the streets and start taking over Ukrainian military bases. Who would have thought that these "little green men" were Russian soldiers? literally everyone except a few useful idiots. President Putin Annexes Crimea into Russia.
In Eastern Ukraine, armed men (this time not in uniform) start taking over the apparatus of state. In the Southern Ukrainian city of Odessa there is a riot between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian crowds, tragically lots of pro-Russian people lose their lives as they are trapped in a building that catches fire. The insurgency against the Kiev regime appears limited to the East.
The pro-Russian rebels hold an election which shows overwhelming support for joining Russia in the regions they control. However these elections are considered dubious by everyone else i.e. no voter lists, armed men inside the polling stations, people being able to vote many times.
As the Ukrainian army fights to regain control of the eastern regions, the rebels capability increases dramatically, leading to accusations that they are being supplied directly by Russians. Key personnel in the insurgency are Russian citizens, and generally believed to be operating under orders from Moscow.
A Malaysian Airlines plane is downed in eastern Ukraine by a surface to air missile. It is generally believed that this missile was fired by pro-Russian rebels.
You are a so called pro-Russian
And just because you have friends there doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than some others.
I just look at bigger picture. Pro-russians? Half of them are Ukrainians and nations from ex-ussr!
They are called terrorists and separatists but they potect what they thing is right for them!
Immagine someone walks with guns etc. In to house of parilament, puts gun in to Cameron's face and say, we rule country now! Well someone might like it and other half not and don't want to change anything and will protect old regime.
As I said I spent in both countries many years, especially in Ukraine; Kiev, Lvov, Karpati ... I visit Ukraine since I am small kid and know both countries: studied Russian and Ukrainian history and know both languages.
I have some horible examples from both sides, but it's war now...but if starting from months before it all happened...you can't blame "separatists" or Russian... US/EU made this mess by sponsoring and promising.EU politics were comming daily to Maidan. Where are they now? How they help to stop violence now? They don't even show casualties and daily deaths of civilians on a news.
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You seem to be completely resolving Yanukovych, oh ofc changed his mind at the last minute and ****ing a lot of people off.
Read Post 2578 sums it up nicely and seems, the only thing i would change is there little straight up proof that putin/russia has it just its very highly likely with the information to hand.
What exactly are half of them doing in a foreign country? If Ukraine has internal issues, Ukrainians should be solving them, not Russians and ex-ussr people!
If Cameron ordered his police force to open fire against his own people, slaughtering about 100 innocent unarmed civilians in the process, then yes, removing him - even with force - would be the right thing to do.
The only casulaties in Ukraine before Russia invaded the country were those that died due to Yanukovych's order. Even so, Ukraine started to sort that issue peacefully, there was no retaliation, no violence against former members of govt. , just their removal.
All the deaths that came aftewards, including the people in the plane, are a direct consequence of Russia's aggression, not people valiantly fighting for what they believe is theirs.
Good posts, Angela.
It was written by an expert in disinformation, that the secret or "trick" is to lie first. Then, it will be believed by a certain number of people, who will be extremely reluctant to change their minds about it, because their ego is tied in to that belief.
That is what is happening to some, who refuse to see the CIA/US State Department's hand in all this mess (along with corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs), because it contradicts what they have chosen to believe.
It was written by an expert in disinformation, that the secret or "trick" is to lie first. Then, it will be believed by a certain number of people, who will be extremely reluctant to change their minds about it, because their ego is tied in to that belief.
That is what is happening to some, who refuse to see the CIA/US State Department's hand in all this mess (along with corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs), because it contradicts what they have chosen to believe.
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