Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

thenewoc said:
So you seem to be confirming that only the newest JD's that are perhaps still around 2 years or less into the job would be on £14 ph.
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Yes the £30k'ish that keeps being quoted is entry level and higher than the national average for other graduates.

Looking at that pay scale are they seriously expecting a 35% pay rise for someone on £60k?
 
n111ck said:
Yes the £30k'ish that keeps being quoted is entry level and higher than the national average for other graduates.

Looking at that pay scale are they seriously expecting a 35% pay rise for someone on £60k?
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No they aren't seriously expecting a 35% pay rise, it's a bargaining position.
 
200sols said:
The public also need to be bluntly told to lose some weight and start moving.
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To be fair, the biggest win would be if people just stopped aging.

There were some delicately expressed opinions very early in covid, when the initial projections were apocalyptic.

If those rates had materialised, a large part of the older, most expensive, cohort would have provided an immediate and long-term reduction in costs.
 
n111ck said:
Looking at that pay scale are they seriously expecting a 35% pay rise for someone on £60k?
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want to see australia's pay scale?

PGY = number of years post-graduation
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n111ck said:
A management restructure would be the starter I'd imagine.
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Yes but that probably wouldn't touch the most unrealistic that sit at the top of the organisation.

They should probably receive additional funding to also take over responsibility of social care from local authorities. If they're responsible for the whole end to end service they would invest in suitable half way house accommodation / intermediary care homes to discharge patients from hospital to free up beds and not have ambulances stacking up waiting to unload. Intermediary care homes would be cheaper to run than the bed blocking that goes on and the cancelled ops because of it. Hospitals were not designed to take long stay patients. They should from a business perspective be running operating theatres almost 24 / 7 to maximise the value of the assets.

They could save a lot if each Trust didn't do it's own thing in terms of outsourcing IT for instance, they ought to take that inhouse as a nationwide shared service.
 
thenewoc said:
Yes but that probably wouldn't touch the most unrealistic that sit at the top of the organisation.

They should probably receive additional funding to also take over responsibility of social care from local authorities. If they're responsible for the whole end to end service they would invest in suitable half way house accommodation / intermediary care homes to discharge patients from hospital to free up beds and not have ambulances stacking up waiting to unload. Intermediary care homes would be cheaper to run than the bed blocking that goes on and the cancelled ops because of it. Hospitals were not designed to take long stay patients. They should from a business perspective be running operating theatres almost 24 / 7 to maximise the value of the assets.

They could save a lot if each Trust didn't do it's own thing in terms of outsourcing IT for instance, they ought to take that inhouse as a nationwide shared service.
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Start of with 500,000 a day for private ambulance, NHS paying companies like dhl etc.. bring that back in house.
 
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n111ck said:
Its not a good one because it sounds ridiculous and is easy to dismiss - should have come in at 15% and settled at 10.
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The figure is important to them as it represents whats been lost over time and has been quietly taken on the chin year after year. The figure is debatable and some grades are more affected than others but it represents the key argument for their IA.

What's really wanted is competitive pay so people don't leave, rotas are full and people can give good care.

I was a JD through the years of subinflation pay rises and since finishing training have seen the locum caps tighten, unfilled gaps on the rota being common, the understaffing, the team members crying after bad night shifts and I've filled in plenty of JD shifts just to keep the service afloat. There just isn't much left for my people to give and trying to get beyond the quick fix mentality is impossible.

We have to fight tooth and nail to get a short term hike in locum pay to keep things running as no one wants to work for the capped rates as everyone is knackered and the shifts are intense. This is looking after kids too (including where my own would be seen), it's pretty high stakes but people have lost sight of this as its all decided by execs/NHSE etc.
 
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StriderX said:
I don't see any Australian's advising the government on ripping up the NHS though...
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I don't think the Australian system would be welcome here though..

Australia's Medicare system ensures that healthcare is free at public hospitals, but after that, price tags start to creep in. Certain services and medicines are heavily subsidized, while other things are left entirely for the patient to pay for.
 
tamzzy said:
want to see australia's pay scale?

PGY = number of years post-graduation
9e2vt8N.png
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Probably worth mentioned that the current exchange rate is 0.54 GBP for AUD soo if you're earning 100K AUD it's 54K GBP. Factor in the somewhat ludicrous cost of living in some of the larger cities in Australia the difference is probably not as stark as shown in this table.

We have a family friend who graduated UK med school back in 2016, he moved to Australia in 2018. Although pay is just one factor it would appear that the general sense of respect is much higher along with the associated work pressures and stress much lower, the base rate of hours worked in a week are also lower which I imagine keeps everyone much happier.
 
swillsy said:
How does the £14 per hour fit in with the recent "Doctors" Pension tax reforms? On the one hand they are being paid peanuts and on the other 80% of doctors pension pots are now too big so they stop working so pension reforms are needed. I think they've overplayed their victim card

www.hfma.org.uk

Budget fixes doctors’ pension concerns, but is silent on funding for NHS pay

www.hfma.org.uk www.hfma.org.uk
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JDs won't earn enough to be affected by the pension tax changes.

The problem with pensions is effecting consultants primarily and I'm by no means an expect, I'm sure someone else will explain better. It's boils down to a problem with Defined Benefit schemes, you have a pension pot but it's partly imaginary but you're still eligible for excessive growth in that pension pot which is calculated every year with increases in salary and inflation. So year after year Consultants were getting hit with 5 or 6 figure bills for growth in their imaginary pension pots. Even the calculations and modelling of your pension tax liabilities is a nightmare.


The result of AA charges were consultants would have to pull out if the pension scheme/hokey cokey in and out/cut hours substantially to reduce pensionable pay or retire. Most of us are not super financially savvy so the later two options were favoured and it was driving the most experienced Consultants to reduce their productivity.

The Government finally made a move on this which only partly reduce the problem because they're aware that Consultants were balloting for IA.
 
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OG said:
Probably worth mentioned that the current exchange rate is 0.54 GBP for AUD soo if you're earning 100K AUD it's 54K GBP. Factor in the somewhat ludicrous cost of living in some of the larger cities in Australia the difference is probably not as stark as shown in this table.

We have a family friend who graduated UK med school back in 2016, he moved to Australia in 2018. Although pay is just one factor it would appear that the general sense of respect is much higher along with the associated work pressures and stress much lower, the base rate of hours worked in a week are also lower which I imagine keeps everyone much happier.
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You can see just from this thread the lack of respect some people have for doctors here now.
 
OG said:
Although pay is just one factor it would appear that the general sense of respect is much higher along with the associated work pressures and stress much lower, the base rate of hours worked in a week are also lower which I imagine keeps everyone much happier.
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taxes are also lower and working contract for extra hours over base pay is vastly better (not immediately obvious in my post)
and as you say, hours worked, working conditions etc
also we have to fund our own courses/exams/conferences - i think this is all covered in the aussie contract so doesn't come out of a JD's take home pay (for me personally, this has averaged £600-700/year) and then all the necessary licences/legal bits/royal college subscriptions (comes out to ~£1500/yr)
i know of a couple (married couple) both junior doctors who went to aus for 5 years then came back...bought a house in bristol in cash and now just locuming rather than going back into "training"
 
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Minstadave said:
JDs won't earn enough to be affected by the pension tax changes.

The problem with pensions is effecting consultants primarily and I'm by no means an expect, I'm sure someone else will explain better. It's boils down to a problem with Defined Benefit schemes, you have a pension pot but it's partly imaginary but you're still eligible for excessive growth in that pension pot which is calculated every year with increases in salary and inflation. So year after year Consultants were getting hit with 5 or 6 figure bills for growth in their imaginary pension pots. Even the calculations and modelling of your pension tax liabilities is a nightmare.

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Maybe they should just become consultants straight away instead of junior doctors then ;)
 
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