You do realise there's no such thing as perfection? All you say here is "I don't care what it will be, I'll bash it anyway.".
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DLSS Momentum Continues: 50 Released and Upcoming DLSS 3 Games, Over 250 DLSS Games and Creative Apps Available Now
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But that's not at all what he's saying. Also, my arguments aren't even based on what he's personally saying - I base it on modern AAA games looking like crap, not because of technologies used but because of lazy programming, bad practices, penny pinching, mismanagement etc. - whatever the case for a given title, for the monies they cost to make they should work and look WAY better. And by better I mean clear image, not the blurry mess they often implement (TAA based, but not as AA just generally abusing the tech instead of doing things properly). Again, this has been voiced by GN not that long ago and by other - games in native should never look worse than upscaled (which by definition is a lossy thing). It's like comparing MP3 to uncompressed audio and somehow the uncompressed audio is so bad quality that the MP3 of that same audio (but with AI sprinkled in) sounds better - that should never be the case and every time that is the case it's a problem. Yet, somehow, a lot of gamers don't see it as a problem, which I find silly.
That's true, his communication skills are very lacking. In his general vids he talks way too fast, glances over details and assumes people will go and research it further themselves, but they won't. It doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about, but better communication would definitely help get the point across. Any time I want to get what he's actually about, I have few pages open with additional info and run his vid in slow motion or paused to see what he's talking about - most people won't do that.
Really? Are we again talking about "resources" in AAA studios that often take 5-10 years to make a game, which cost $200+ mil to make? Yet somehow "AA" and indie games with fraction of that budget and teams are able to make games that work and look just fine. Where did they money and time go, then? Or maybe someone pocketed a lot, whilst hiring inexperienced/intern devs to do bad (but cheap) programming? As often that's how it looks to me. Not just visual problems, but also so many bugs and broken/unfinished parts of these games, which then require a ton of patching to fix basic things. AAA industry is simply broken badly and that's a fact. It's also not normal, yet market for some reason tolerated that for a way too long time. Gladly, things are slowly changing for the better.(...)Thing is, studios don't have the resources that someone like Chris Roberts has (btw, would be nice to see a teardown of that engine
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That data is just for CNN, Transformer is considerably more expensive computationally. Also, this in itself doesn't say anything if one doesn't also show how much time other operations take per each frame of a modern AA game. This is what TI often shows in his deep dive video showing specific games and engines - what they exactly do, how many ms it takes to computer and how it could be done differently (and how much time that would cost). I wish testers/reviewers would do such deep dive now and then - DF really should, but instead they prefer to theorise what happens in a given frame, often saying total idiocy, as they have no knowledge to actually analyse it.Even basic upscaling works well for 4K simply because it's an obscene amount of pixels. With something as advanced as DLSS you almost feel stupid not to upscale from even 1080p just because the visual downside vs performance benefits is so skewed in favour of the latter.
60 FPS = 16.7 ms
Yes, about double, check previous page for another table. Not that important anyway because people were very happy with CNN visuals too especially for 4K.
That's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We were discussing if it makes sense to go to 4K given performance demands & I pointed out that upscaling makes it a very cheap proposition (and the visual quality is evident). All we need to know is native res perf (minus AA cost) vs target render res cost + DLSS cost. It's not going to be the exact performance but >90% there, so good enough to know it's worth doing.
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Soldato
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I'm only interested to see how his TAA implementation will best DLSS and FSR 4 (since we're in this thread).
That's not just performance, but also gameplay and just features in general. Part of the cost would be the high salaries in USA and Western Europe.
Some improvements aren't cheap to make. I've mentioned Chris and Star Citizen since they needed 2 years + to proper thread and change the engine to Vulkan and that with people that worked at Crytek. They kept on improving and optimizing certain aspects, but it ain't always easy and cheap.
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TAA = AA. DLSS and FSR 4 = upscaling. Apples vs oranges. Unless you meant TAA vs DLAA vs native FSR 4 AA? That would make more sense. But then... he already did such comparison - he changed TAA in some games to his implementation as an example of how it can be done and did video comparison.
It's as if you imagine one team does everything when creating a game, as if all programmers are equal, never specialise and just do everything... and that all of them are paid well. Is that what you imagine happens in these corporations? Then no, that's not how it works. In big studios which make AAA games, you have teams responsible for various bits and bobs. Example, credits from CP2077 - look how many teams they had working on various elements. Credits also list usually just senior people, with high salaries - not that many of them after all. They have many more junior cheap ones tasked with creating some bits. And then it's a matter of senior people not being lazy and directing the work properly for their teams and overseeing juniors not creating a total mess. There's a huge salary difference between senior and junior people in these corporations.
Cyberpunk 2077 credits (Windows, 2020) - MobyGames
The official game credits for Cyberpunk 2077 released on Windows in 2020. The credits include 3,561 people.
www.mobygames.com
SC is a forever-in-development game. It will likely never come as people throw monies at them and so that company will always find a reason not to finish development and do tweaks, changes, engine changes, optimisations etc. - for many more years to come, till monies dry out. Maybe then they will release a functioning product. Point being - that company and game is an abomination, not the rule on the market and whatever they're doing is not what anyone else is doing. Other companies work 5-10 years, with 200+ mil budgets and release total rubbish. I ask again - where did the time and money go for such poor result?
And to bring back CP2077 - it's been released in a horribly broken state, turning into a bad meme. And then they admitted themselves - project has been changed a few times over during development, ideas changed, the whole design changed and then they rushed it out. Whose fault was it, then? Obviously management, as it usually is the case - because a lot of gamers just accept such state of things and so it happens. That does NOT mean it can't and should not be done better.
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Associate
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Some people really are stuck in the old mindset that you need to buy a display with a low enough native resolution that you can run all games without upscaling. Or even worse, they're sending sub-native resolutions to the display and having that do the scaling (UI and all)... which they usually don't even realise is scaling. The amount of people I've seen on Steam forums raging because DX12 doesn't have an Exclusive Fullscreen option and they can't change the output resolution.
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Soldato
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Through its upscaling way, DLSS it also acts as a pretty efficient AA.TAA = AA. DLSS and FSR 4 = upscaling. Apples vs oranges. Unless you meant TAA vs DLAA vs native FSR 4 AA? That would make more sense. But then... he already did such comparison - he changed TAA in some games to his implementation as an example of how it can be done and did video comparison.
It's as if you imagine one team does everything when creating a game, as if all programmers are equal, never specialise and just do everything... and that all of them are paid well. Is that what you imagine happens in these corporations? Then no, that's not how it works. In big studios which make AAA games, you have teams responsible for various bits and bobs. Example, credits from CP2077 - look how many teams they had working on various elements. Credits also list usually just senior people, with high salaries - not that many of them after all. They have many more junior cheap ones tasked with creating some bits. And then it's a matter of senior people not being lazy and directing the work properly for their teams and overseeing juniors not creating a total mess. There's a huge salary difference between senior and junior people in these corporations.
Cyberpunk 2077 credits (Windows, 2020) - MobyGames
The official game credits for Cyberpunk 2077 released on Windows in 2020. The credits include 3,561 people.
SC is a forever-in-development game. It will likely never come as people throw monies at them and so that company will always find a reason not to finish development and do tweaks, changes, engine changes, optimisations etc. - for many more years to come, till monies dry out. Maybe then they will release a functioning product. Point being - that company and game is an abomination, not the rule on the market and whatever they're doing is not what anyone else is doing. Other companies work 5-10 years, with 200+ mil budgets and release total rubbish. I ask again - where did the time and money go for such poor result?
A junior in USA will get paid better than a junior in Easter Europe, for instance.
It's not about when it will get released, but about the tech behind it. Since you've posted about CB 2077, it took plenty of time to get polished - and still has its issues (some pretty bad for a large, open world game), even though it was their own engine, with plenty of experience with open world games. Not to mention Bethesda's continuing fails, even with AMD's involvement.
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I wasn't bought into DLSS at 1440p, and would rather have lower frames and running natively.. Since upgrading to 4k (the same time as the transformer model came out) i'm sold!
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On a new GPU I like to go back to some older games and give them a whirl absolutely maxed out. I swear slightly older games just look better than the absolute latest stuff. Watch Dogs Legion (while a pretty mediocre game) looks absolutely stunning maxed out at 4K with HDR and cranked raytracing. For some reason DLSS was greyed out, so I was seeing upto 95% GPU usage. After enabling the DLSS 'latest' override it became available again. Turned it on. Image quality was absolutely identical to native and usage plummeted to 55-60%. There's rarely a 'free lunch' in PC gaming but this is absolutely a free lunch.
As Nvidia ai VP confirmed himself, in some cases CNN model was introducing aliasing instead of doing proper AA. It was far from perfect. TAA as such has so such issues, as there's no decision making involved (AI).
I don't even know what your point here is. My point being, Devs can and should do better and currently most modern AAA games (but also other software and hardware) get released in very broken state, because people don't criticise it enough anymore, so why bother actually finishing the product when you can get monies now then fix issues maybe later, if people complain. Management of CP2077 came out in the open confirming it's been rushed and apologised for it, which is why I brought it as an example. Most other publishers don't even apologise, instead they move on to the next broken release, dropping support early most of the time. It's all gross mismanagement of time, money and resources that they later charge us for - which is why I seldom buy why new games at all these days.
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Unless these are games from the golden time of physx and you have 5k series GPU - DLSS won't help there.
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Soldato
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You can switch around with ease what version of DLSS works best for a specific game. You can't do that with TAA.
To reformulate: devs might be aware of what to improve, but isn't always worth it financially.
Maybe they played on CRT in the past? But that would be ages ago, though. These handled various resolutions just fine, one didn't have to use "native" and could still get very good image quality without upscaling in the modern sense of that word.
Most people don't know about it and never do that
It's also not the point. TAA doesn't require any of that if implemented well. However, DLAA 3 sucks royally aside static screenshots - I can't really use it, too many issues (ghosting and blurry image in movement). DLAA 4 is finally a usable AA solution in movement but cost more FPS than CNN one. I'm fine to pay that price though.
To reformulate - IMHO they have no right to talk about finances with such gigantic budgets, it's a tiny fraction of a cost to do well. They don't need to write their own engine from scratch like they had to in the past anymore, they only need to follow proper best practices. But, we're back to mismanagement and wasting time and money and then having big losses on release, which is the current typical thing for AAA, it seems.
I was playing Alan Wake 2 on crt at 720p the other day, looked great. Free DLSS
and at around 85fps looked like 144 on my oled. Free frame gen
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Soldato
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A proper implementation of DLSS will also be quite good.
Those that don' knowt, probably also don't care. A lot of fuss is made by those that care and know.
Considering the budgets a lot should be different, that's true. So I'm waiting to see what TI can so with theirs.