14th Gen "Raptor Lake Refresh"

[humbug]

We'll leave it up to you and nobody else to try and make an argument for thread priority being better on AMD. I'm sure Intel will be sorry to lose your custom if they were to ever have had it in the first place. A veteran of experience we can only all but admire

You're welcome, again.

 

[ED209]

Afaik, it is October for K, January for non-K.

Cheers

 

[Rroff]

I'm not so sure about that. From what he said, it wasn't clear that he had established what settings they were using and if he had, I'd have thought he would have said so directly rather than talk in general terms about how he expects W680 to behave. I actually find it surprising they'd want to buy many Super Micro boards because at least in the UK, they're really expensive and I'd have thought it would negate the advantage of using i7/i9 CPUs.

When I was involved in running a GSP (EscapedTurkey) we were often using systems with boards like the W680 (obviously not the W680 as this was years back) and using performance settings rather than conservative/stock. (This was actually where I first/only encountered Super Flower PSUs a long time before they were being retail sold in the UK).

An interesting one we never got to the bottom of - despite overall lower performance we found in some generations Celeron CPUs actually resulted in more responsive feeling game servers and often better performance numbers where the game's dedicated server measured it*, especially with certain game engines, when running multiple server instances on the same system (as in it was noticeable to the average person in blind testing). Which was quite odd.

* Actually a bit more complicated than that as in measured better up to a point, then fell off a cliff, whereas more powerful CPUs weren't measuring as well best case but holding up better under heavier load conditions.

 

[Rroff]

Doesn't really add much we don't already know but GN + L1 Tech combined video:

 

[Grim5]

Jesus that's wild - server providers claiming their 14th gen chips have a 50% failure rate

You may wonder why 50% of 14th gen gamers are not complaining and it's because the server providers have a different acceptance of failure. If a game crashes once a week for a gamer, they won't care but if the cpu crashes the game server even once that's a problem for a business and their logs can pickup tiny issues from cpu cores shutting down to errors in cpu memory cache and they say 50% 14th gen CPUs have issues

It's also telling that server providers are starting to switch their game servers to AMD hardware because Intel has so far provided no solution

 

[Raiden85]

And more worrying is the Intel W680 chipset some are running these CPUs in they are never overclocked, running at stock, fairly low power while running cool and they are still failing badly. What a disaster this is turning out to be for Intel and could be a very costly one.

 

[Grim5]

And more worrying is the Intel W680 chipset some are running these CPUs in they are never overclocked, running at stock, fairly low power while running cool and they are still failing badly. What a disaster this is turning out to be for Intel and could be a very costly one.

And Wendell and Steve hinted towards this, the evidence from the w680 server providers seems to imply that even using Intels 125w baseline profile does not fix the underlying causes - Steve says he has evidence that the issue is physical hardware inside the CPU and that the issue cannot be fixed with microcode or bios updates but Steve and Wendell did not discuss this further as Steve doesn't want Intel to know where Steve found out the info - guess we'll have to wait for them to release the evidence

Getting Intel to admit it's a hardware fault will be tricky though, they will do everything they can because otherwise they'd have to do a big recall

 

[Rroff]

And more worrying is the Intel W680 chipset some are running these CPUs in they are never overclocked, running at stock, fairly low power while running cool and they are still failing badly. What a disaster this is turning out to be for Intel and could be a very costly one.

I don't do much of that stuff any more but I've been talking to some of my old contacts who are still in the game server business and they aren't seeing these kind of failure rates, nothing like, though they have seen 13th and 14th gen failures at an unusual level compared to past experience (as in seeing something vs seeing practically nothing at all).

I did that kind of stuff both as part of a GSP and out of my own pocket for several years and to be honest it would be raising my eyebrows to see 1 CPU related crash a week let alone having to disable cores, etc. to get a CPU stable. The vast majority of systems would run like 2-3 years rock solid stable once correctly setup with maybe like 1-2 hardware related errors in that time maybe.

 

[ATIorNvidia]

Intel is selling defective CPUs - Alderon Games

We have been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

alderongames.com

 

[Grim5]

"We at Alderon Games, working on the multiplayer dinosaur survival game Path of Titans, has been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. These issues, including crashes, instability, and memory corruption, are confined to the 13th and 14th generation processors. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

We have identified failures in five main areas:

• End Customers: Thousands of crashes on Intel CPUs on 13th and 14th Gen CPUs in our crash reporting tools.
• Official Dedicated Game Servers:Experiencing constant crashes, taking entire servers down.
• Development Team: Developers using these CPUs face frequent instability while building and working on the game. It can also cause SSD and memory corruption.
• Game Server Providers: Hosting community servers with persistent crashing issues.
• Benchmarking Tools: Decompression and memory tests unrelated to Path of Titans also fail.

Over the last 4 months, we have observed that CPUs initially working that then deteriorate over time, eventually failing.

Actions We Are Taking​

To prevent further harm to our game, we are implementing the following measures:

• Server Migration: We are swapping all our servers to AMD.
• Hosting Recommendations: We advise anyone hosting Path of Titans servers or selling game servers to avoid purchasing or using 13th and 14th gen Intel CPUs.
• In-Game Notifications: We are adding a popup message in-game to inform users with these processors about the issue. Many users are currently unaware of why their game is crashing and what they can do about it."

 

[RavenXXX2]

Lisa laughing her chops off.

 

[Glanza]

"We at Alderon Games, working on the multiplayer dinosaur survival game Path of Titans, has been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. These issues, including crashes, instability, and memory corruption, are confined to the 13th and 14th generation processors. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

We have identified failures in five main areas:

• End Customers: Thousands of crashes on Intel CPUs on 13th and 14th Gen CPUs in our crash reporting tools.
• Official Dedicated Game Servers:Experiencing constant crashes, taking entire servers down.
• Development Team: Developers using these CPUs face frequent instability while building and working on the game. It can also cause SSD and memory corruption.
• Game Server Providers: Hosting community servers with persistent crashing issues.
• Benchmarking Tools: Decompression and memory tests unrelated to Path of Titans also fail.

Over the last 4 months, we have observed that CPUs initially working that then deteriorate over time, eventually failing.

Actions We Are Taking​

To prevent further harm to our game, we are implementing the following measures:

• Server Migration: We are swapping all our servers to AMD.
• Hosting Recommendations: We advise anyone hosting Path of Titans servers or selling game servers to avoid purchasing or using 13th and 14th gen Intel CPUs.
• In-Game Notifications: We are adding a popup message in-game to inform users with these processors about the issue. Many users are currently unaware of why their game is crashing and what they can do about it."

Like Wendell mentioned in his video I wonder how much $$ gaming companies have lost with refunds due to people blaming the game for crashing and getting a refund and moving on to something else.

 

[Raiden85]

Like Wendell mentioned in his video I wonder how much $$ gaming companies have lost with refunds due to people blaming the game for crashing and getting a refund and moving on to something else.

Also mentioned in the GN video some may have been possibly banned from a game because of this as the CPUs are causing all sorts of weird issues and may need any bans reversing. What a mess.

 

[LtMatt]

Lisa laughing her chops off.

I don't know who made this, but seems apt.

Spoiler

 

[Robert896r1]

@Silent_Scone so droopy llc leading to higher system voltage under light loads and idle being the main cause of the deg? I’d imagine this is made worse by mce enabled which is trying to boost performance by shooting for higher set voltages.

When doing vrm testing, we learned that adl and up, there was little value in using droopy llc unlike in the past. On ASU’s for example, llc6 was the best balance for vmin and set voltages for daily systems.

I manually set all my voltages and tuning so it’s not anything I’d encounter but just to understand the culprit.

 

[humbug]

Jesus that's wild - server providers claiming their 14th gen chips have a 50% failure rate

You may wonder why 50% of 14th gen gamers are not complaining and it's because the server providers have a different acceptance of failure. If a game crashes once a week for a gamer, they won't care but if the cpu crashes the game server even once that's a problem for a business and their logs can pickup tiny issues from cpu cores shutting down to errors in cpu memory cache and they say 50% 14th gen CPUs have issues

It's also telling that server providers are starting to switch their game servers to AMD hardware because Intel has so far provided no solution

Its also that they are running games 24/7 and the CPU is probably divided up in to virtual cores so there is actually a higher load on the CPU overall.

And more worrying is the Intel W680 chipset some are running these CPUs in they are never overclocked, running at stock, fairly low power while running cool and they are still failing badly. What a disaster this is turning out to be for Intel and could be a very costly one.

Steve Burke seemed to me at least gave a hint of what he thinks it also might be, yes its more than one thing, the cache is unstable, burning out, that to me could be down to system RAM speed, Intel could be running these very high system ram speed's with the cache 1:1 and perhaps that's too high.

 

[humbug]

Like Wendell mentioned in his video I wonder how much $$ gaming companies have lost with refunds due to people blaming the game for crashing and getting a refund and moving on to something else.

That last one.

• In-Game Notifications: We are adding a popup message in-game to inform users with these processors about the issue. Many users are currently unaware of why their game is crashing and what they can do about it."

Alderon Games:

 

[G J]

I'm surprised what the founder of Alderon Games posted got past their legal department.

 

[humbug]

I'm surprised what the founder of Alderon Games posted got past their legal department.

Certain crash errors are due to this problem, that's not just a provable fact Intel have acknowledged it, they can't not, they don't want to, they hate it, they want the world to forget about it and the ambiguity is deliberate because if they actually come clean about what the issue is they will have to either refund millions of CPU's or swap them for 15'th gen, that's assuming 15'th gen does not also have this flaw.

They are being an Ostrich about it trying to figure out how this is not going to cost them massive.

 

[Dave2150]

14th gen (specifically 14900k, 14900KS) are a complete joke for gaming anyway. Not sure why any gaming datacentre's were buying these when Zen4X3D is available.

Even if the CPU's were stable, AMD is just so much more power efficient. With datacentre power being so important, I'd have thought it would be a huge incentive to swap to Zen4X3D. Imagine the power saving when considering thousands of these CPU's... Mind boggling.

I think Arrow Lake and future Intel CPU's will be clocked much more conservatively.