;)

[MyBrainz]

Ok Im done with this thread, too much bickering over one GPU..

I am really happy with my Red Dragon Vega 56 though

later.

 

[flea.rider]

think the 56 might be my only upgrade I'm not going to see much r290 to 590 was hoping for a little better ..
just under the 56 for £250 yeah that would have been great ..

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

590 should be a £150 max GPU

We don't know how much it cost to develop - yes it's still a die shrunk 480/580, but how much does the shrinking/respin, validation/testing cost for that process? How much are Global charging for 12nm wafers? What is the yield like etc?

AMD Still need to maximize revenue from whatever GPUs they are selling - dropping a 590 to £150 just because that's what a few people think it should be, isn't going to financially sustainable. Bundling some games that they can negotiate a decent "deal" on, means they can add value to a bundle without taking as much of a hit.

Price drops on RX570/RX580 are indirectly going to help the lower end of the market (e.g. by making AMD's not very good RX560, and the 2GB 1050 cards a very unattractive option).
Whether RX570/RX580 price drops and stock is sustainable (e.g. maybe they are still producing 14nm parts to fulfill contracts at a very good price now), or whether they are simply being subsidised until stock runs out will be the issue.

ITT we're not talking about the 570, 560, 1030, or whatever card you think compares favourably to nV alternatives. Sorry about that.

I won't bother replying because you're in full AMD defence mode, and it's painful for most of us to watch. Yes, even the neutrals.

That's crap, Cat. You're making it up.

I have never owned a 1060. I haven't had an nV card for years.

You're seeing nV shills everywhere. We're all nV shills. Trust no one!

Like I said, it's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed for you.


This also never happened, so either you think I'm someone else or you're delusional.


This also never happened. Lols.

Embarrassing.

Ye gads, you're on a roll with the 100% made up "facts".

CAT-THE-FIFTH said: ↑
Every AMD thread you **** them off pretending to be neutral. Even TB pretends and then says AMD needs to price the RX590 8GB at £150.
I've consistently bemoaned the lack of progress from 290 levels of perf at the £200-£250 price point. Why does that translate to a lot of AMD bashing?

Mostly because AMD have, in recent years, kept re-releasing the same performing card at the same price level for 4 gens now. It's taking the mick. Just in a different way than nV releasing obscenely priced Titans and 2000 series cards. But it's still taking the mick.

So a card 60% faster than a GTX1050TI?? You came into this thread to support your mate,and yet why does it need to be £150??
I don't know anyone on this forum enough to call them "my mate". I don't know TB in the slightest. Like, at all. Even a tiny bit.

But now he's my mate whose opinion I must care about and defend. Naturally.

Then when its pointed out AMD sell faster cards than the GTX1050TI and GTX1060 3GB at £150 to £200,with games,etc all you can say is "AMD defence force".

That is all you can do? Yet,none of you questioned once why Nvidia never dropped its card prices at all.

Oh wait,since none of you are moaning at Nvidia pricing the 1050ti and 1060 3gb too high.

You come across as entitled,and since AMD didn't price the RX590 at £150 now you are blaming them.
I never said anything about £150 590s. You can stop saying it.

Next, this thread isn't about the 1050/Ti, or the 560, or below. I'm happy that there are options for people in those price categories, but I don't really concern myself with the real low-end cards because they don't interest me. You won't find me commenting on 560 or 1050 perf/$ because it's not where I focus my attention.

Now, about nV pricing... Find me any post of mine where I was doing anything other than ridiculing the new RTX 2000 series. Find me one, single post where I praised nV or their prices. In fact I've peed of @Gregster quite a bit by criticising the 2080Ti and the like.

Also for the 1000 nV cards... again, find me one post of mine where I did anything other than say I found them to be overpriced. Because I know that's exactly what I said. And if I thought that about the 1000 series, then what do you think I've been saying about the 2000 series? Again, enough to pee off people like Greg...

Sorry Cat, and I know you can't see it, but you're 100% in AMD defence mode. You have these spells where it seems to be life and death to you to defend AMD's reputation, and frankly to the those who aren't red/green blinkered, it's painfully apparent where your loyalty lies.

You're red through and through.

You walked into the thread,and then didn't read anything and then when its pointed out you are wrong,you start calling "AMD Defence force","Red through and "through" and call people "blinkered". So amargeus literally questioning TB's statement makes him blinkered to?? Oh,OK.

I am so red,that is why I have a GTX1080. But unlike you I do a ton of builds in the RL,and had to track pricing,so it makes me laugh when neutral people like you seem to egg on every bloody thing they do.

You do it all the time in graphics threads,you walk in half way through something make a comment,when you are challenged you started making "defence force rubbish" to attack the person not the argument.

So this is FoxEye logic. TB says a RX590 should be £150. This is GTX1050TI money. I pointed out the RX570 8GB with three games is more or less than price and 40% to 45% faster. He deflects. I point out the RX580 4GB/8GB are now under £200 and are GTX1060 3GB priced with games.

So AMD is faster,they offer games,etc. Performance won't be why they are not selling.

Then FoxEye walks into the thread,and then seems to not understand the conversation was about the £150 statement.

Then when its pointed out its about that,you then call people blinkered,team red defenders and all that. Typical really,and all to deflect from the point being made.

So everyone FoxEye thinks anyone who says a RX570 8GB at £160 is better than a GTX1050TI 4GB,or a RX580 4GB/8GB is better than a GTX1060 3GB in terms of value is blinkered and defending AMD. No nothing to do with looking at the performance.

No,no the RX590 needs to be £150,and if you don't support it,you are some AMD lover.

The funny thing is I don't post that much in GPU threads anymore,but the whole RX590 needs to be £150 statement is one of the most hilarious things I have read on this forum this year.

Yes it needs to be £150 with three expensive games,while Nvidia will happily sell £230+ GTX1060 which still cost more than an RX580.

Or the fact the "poor pricing" is only because the RX590 is even faster than a GTX1060,and AMD is pushing out 3 AAA games with it.

So Nvidia does not need to drop prices,but AMD needs to?? Wow.

If AMD is so crap value,maybe that is why they don't want to be the "budget brand" since at this rate,they should just not bother with graphics.

 

[Gregster]

Bloody hell guys, wait for it to be released at least lol and I do think it can be a decent card if it pops in at under £250 with those 3 games.

 

[FoxEye]

Lol, Cat. You're going to burst a blood vessel at this rate.

 

[MyBrainz]

think the 56 might be my only upgrade I'm not going to see much r290 to 590 was hoping for a little better ..
just under the 56 for £250 yeah that would have been great ..

Thought I'd pop back to show you an example of the difference between a pretty heavy RX 480 OC of 1440 Core vs a fairly easy OC on Vega 56 (my 480 is only a 4GB version though).

https://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/4754348/spy/5028536#



I think the RX 590 is well worth a £250 price with those 3 games.

Like Gibbo said, AMD isnt a charity

 

[Ian Evey]

1070 still faster AFAIK. This is more to compete with the 1060 6GB.

No it’s not, they have that already with a 580. The 590 is better than a 1060 hands down. The problem is the only people that will buy a 590 is someone with a card already or an older gen slower card, no one in their right mind would get one if they already have a 290/390/480/580/1060/970/980/980ti and that’s a very small market Amd are targeting.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Lol, Cat. You're going to burst a blood vessel at this rate.

It's why I don't get involved in these threads increasingly as they are frustrating.

Long-term AMD graphics not only needs a overhaul but a whole name change,etc.

I love a bargain myself but there is a limit to that too when I wonder whether it's a race to the bottom. The issue is AMD will be the first to bow out before Nvidia or even Intel.

To put it bluntly Nvidia could probably finish AMD graphics by just aggressively rebaiting their sub £400 cards for a few months. AMD won't be able to fight that and Intel did that and nearly finished them. At this point they realise its not needed. Even the HD4000/HD5000/HD6000 didn't have the outcomes which were expected - hence why years ago they thought consumer graphics were a deadend for them. They tried bargain basement pricing,higher performance, launching six months earlier,etc. Nvidia still sold more cards overall.

If Navi and it's successor do not generate better profitability long-term for RTG I can see AMD just moving away from PC gaming graphics. So we need Intel to step up then.

Intel will only price aggressively to get a monopoly down the line (contra revenue) otherwise I can't see them long-term going bargain basement like AMD did. So then you have Intel and Nvidia with their 60% margins which like it that way.

 

[G J]

snipped the picture

I think the RX 590 is well worth a £250 price with those 3 games.

Like Gibbo said, AMD isnt a charity

Yep its seems like good value for a 590 with the games.

AMD isnt a charity... well neither am I and a lot of other people and i'm not going to give them money or nvidia for side grades or upgrades that are not worth it especially when theres' a second hand market to compete with these cards. Some people dont seem to be grasping this and throw the old poor AMD nobody wont buy their cards and the nVidia sheeple/mindshare herp derp narritive.

It's taken how many years now where the mid range cards are at prices where it may be worth it rather then picking up a 290/970 second hand.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I find i utterly hilarious when all the moaners could have gotten an RX470 4GB for £160 back in 2016,just after the £ collapsed 20% and then moan that a £160 RX570 8GB with 3 expensive games is "not enough" since they expecting an RX590 8GB for £150 which is probably 60% faster than a GTX1050TI.

None of you seem to grasp how stupid it is,and I bought an RX470 in 2016,and built plenty of midrange PCs,and have mates who play games on these cards. Outside the crap mining boom for a year,you could get these cards. Somehow I managed to get them and so did mates.

Then you are talking about a brief period where AMD couldn't even give away the R9 290 4GB for £180,since people kept calling crap and hot,and now all we hear,is that one or two months when you could get that card for that price.

No lets forget,the GTX970/R9 390 were more like £240 TO £250 cards,which might have been cheaper if you sold the games.

Oh but lets look at the cards,which were consider sub £200 NORMALLY.

Yes,they were the GTX960,R9 380 and R9 380X. Oh wait,I had one of them too.

So whilst all of you moan at AMD even bothering to do something,Nvidia laughes as it still sells the GTX1050TI 4GB for not far off what the GTX960 4GB costs,and still sells the GTX1060 6GB for £230+ so,this is all the fault of AMD apparently.

Plus if you want to blame high card prices,blame all the people who decided to buy GTX1050TI cards for £150. Even Nvidia must have been pondering why they even bothered with the GTX1060 3GB.

 

[FoxEye]

But what about the people who have 290/390/480 cards? Dating back to 2013?

It's all very well saying, "590 is a great card if you're coming from on-board!" But you could still be making that same argument in 2020, if a future 680 performed the same for the same money.

What about those of us coming from 290/390?

Face it - the 480 is 2.5 years old. The 290 is over 5 years old.

 

[Jono8]

It's taken how many years now where the mid range cards are at prices where it may be worth it rather then picking up a 290/970 second hand.

We are still not there as nothing has changed.

In July 2016 you could have got a brand new 1060 for under £240.

Nearly 2.5 years later AMD release something ~5-10% faster for what is reported to be at least £250.

Virtually no progress or improvement in price/performance has been made.

 

[flea.rider]

I find i utterly hilarious when all the moaners could have gotten an RX470 4GB for £160 back in 2016,just after the £ collapsed 20% and then moan that a £160 RX570 8GB with 3 expensive games is "not enough" since they expecting an RX590 8GB for £150 which is probably 60% faster than a GTX1050TI.

None of you seem to grasp how stupid it is,and I bought an RX470 in 2016,and built plenty of midrange PCs,and have mates who play games on these cards. Outside the crap mining boom for a year,you could get these cards. Somehow I managed to get them and so did mates.

Then you are talking about a brief period where AMD couldn't even give away the R9 290 4GB for £180,since people kept calling **** and hot,and now all we here,is that one or two months when you could get that card.

No lets forget,the GTX970/R9 390 were more like £250 cards,which might have been cheaper if you sold the games.

Oh but lets look at the cards,which were consider sub £200 NORMALLY.

Yes,they were the GTX960,R9 380 and R9 380X. Oh wait,I had one of them too.

So whilst all of you moan at AMD even bothering to do something,Nvidia laughes as it still sells the GTX1050TI 4GB for not far off what the GTX960 4GB costs,and still sells the GTX1060 6GB for £230+ so,this is all the fault of AMD apparently.

yeah but I have a r290 which beats a 470/580 just... so should I spend £250+ on a 590.. no that's what I hear everyone saying .. but your not listening
it's not close enough to a 56 to be worth it for the price .. 3rd refresh even on a shrink is still not worth the upgrade and that's the point 3rd refresh ...
I love amd/ati I would never buy nv . but it is time the did something better than this .. not sometime next yr but now ..are we not worth it ?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But what about the people who have 290/390/480 cards? Dating back to 2013?

It's all very well saying, "590 is a great card if you're coming from on-board!" But you could still be making that same argument in 2020, if a future 680 performed the same for the same money.

What about those of us coming from 290/390?

Face it - the 480 is 2.5 years old. The 290 is over 5 years old.

Yet the RX570 8GB which is probably close to an RX480 8GB(especially the cheapo ones) which cost £220 to £250,was £160 with three games for weeks now.

The aftermarket RX480 cards were closer to £250 as one of my mates pre-ordered from OcUK. The cheaper cards had the horrible stock cooler.

The R9 290 was above £300 for most of its life. It crashed in price when the GTX970 undercut it(Nvidia deserved the success it had with that card),since people were moaning about its heat,power consumption,noise even on 3rd party cards. So the retailers just lost money and ditched the cards for peanuts. Yet look at the rebranded R9 390 - more VRAM,slightly overclocked,and it was frequently closer to £250. It tracked close for that for ages,since people rated the R9 390 much more than the R9 290.

Then came along the GTX1070 priced at between $379 to $449,the pound collapsed,and people then were paying even £400 for a card to succeed a £250 GTX970,for that 50% extra:

https://tpucdn.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1070/images/perfrel_1920_1080.png

Then AMD ***** up with Vega,and the rest is history. Then you had bloody mining. Then look at the price of GTX1070 and Vega56 now for £350.

yeah but I have a r290 which beats a 470/580 just... so should I spend £250+ on a 590.. no that's what I hear everyone saying .. but your not listening
it's not close enough to a 56 to be worth it for the price .. 3rd refresh even on a shrink is still not worth the upgrade and that's the point 3rd refresh ...
I love amd/ati I would never buy nv . but it is time the did something better than this .. not sometime next yr but now ..are we not worth it ?

The issue,is the GTX1070 increased the price of a 70 series card from $330 to between $379 to $449.Then the pound collapsed 20%,so the competitor of the R9 290 replacement went up. Then AMD ***** up with Vega and now here we are.

See how much the GTX1070 typically went for - usually around £350 to £450.

People were willing to spend £100 to £200 to get a 50% uplift over a much cheaper GTX970 or R9 390. The price was set,AMD screwed up with Vega,and couldn't drop the price,mining hit,so here we are.

Now we have the RTX series,barely changing price/performance and AMD has no top level GPU which can actually compete that well especially on price/performance since Vega is too bloody expensive to make due to the obsession with HBM2.

I wished and wished it didn't use HBM2 as I knew it would cause problems. AMD used it.

Fury hit the same problems due to it going for a complex technological solution.

So hardly any downwards pressure which is what pushes midrange cards to lower pricing level.

 

[Armageus]

but it is time the did something better than this .. not sometime next yr but now ..are we not worth it ?

You can't pull a new gpu architecture out of thin air?

Vega was delayed, performance and power consumption poorer than expected. Navi was likely to be an evolution of Vega, but has since been pushed back and redesigned somewhat (and hopefully fixes the limitations of gcn to provide a good final outing) . Arcturus or whatever hopefully will be a clean slate and perform well.

The problem is once your go down one route you are stuck with it for a few years. Yes you can respin chips, make a few minor changes (e.g. memory compression tech in r9 285 etc), but you rely on process tech e.g. move from 28nm to 14nm, faster memory clock speeds e.g. as newer parts/pricing allows, or brute force by factory overclocking at the expense of power consumption

 

[flea.rider]

https://tpucdn.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1070/images/perfrel_1920_1080.png

Then AMD ***** up with Vega,and the rest is history. Then you had bloody mining. Then look at the price of GTX1070 and Vega56 now for £350.



The issue,is the GTX1070 increased the price of a 70 series card from $330 to between $379 to $449.Then the pound collapsed 20%,so the competitor of the R9 290 replacement went up. Then AMD ***** up with Vega and now here we are.

See how much the GTX1070 typically went for - usually around £350 to £450.

People were willing to spend £100 to £200 to get a 50% uplift over a much cheaper GTX970 or R9 390. The price was set,AMD screwed up with Vega,and couldn't drop the price,mining hit,so here we are.

dude as I have said I don't care about nv .. what ever there price is or were has been has nothing to do with me .. I'm amd/ati all the way .
as to the pound .. we over pay all the time .. nothing to do with 1 to 1 .. pound dollar ..
what have amd done for me for the last 4 yrs+ ?????? **** all so i will wait to see what the 56 is on black Friday ...if it an't good enough i'll keep my failing r290 till it dies or navi comes out ..

 

[FoxEye]

Yet the RX570 8GB which is probably close to an RX480 8GB(especially the cheapo ones) which cost £220 to £250,was £160 with three games for weeks now.

The aftermarket RX480 cards were closer to £250 as one of my mates pre-ordered from OcUK. The cheaper cards had the horrible stock cooler.

But again you are avoiding the question we asked.

Was the 570 an upgrade for a 290 or a 390?

Is the 590 and upgrade for the 580, or even the 390x?

So if the 590 is £250+, what good is it really to us? Who is this card aimed at? Those who could have had the 290/390/480/580 for 5 years but just never got round to buying one?

 

[gpuerrilla]

I've consistently bemoaned the lack of progress from 290 levels of perf at the £200-£250 price point. Why does that translate to a lot of AMD bashing?

Mostly because AMD have, in recent years, kept re-releasing the same performing card at the same price level for 4 gens now. It's taking the mick.

Have to agree here, I own a 290x and when I looked circa a year back there was nothing justifying an upgrade this side of £400 which a year on isnt much different. Apart from better power consumption it has been rather pitiful from both sides and needs a jumpstart (to offer consumers tech features) if ever it decides to come along.

Just waiting for Gibbo's magic news and if it dissapoints its another six months in the cave till I look again!

Oh and I ended up with a 290x because the 7990 I had for months went to RMA (which was eol). That was early 2013, I am completely gobsmacked that for PC component progression there has been hardly any GPU landmarks in those 5 years. I dont mind spending ~£300 for a great GPU. Trouble is you now have to spend double that which isnt quite cricket.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

dude as I have said I don't care about nv .. what ever there price is or were has been has nothing to do with me .. I'm amd/ati all the way .
as to the pound .. we over pay all the time .. nothing to do with 1 to 1 .. pound dollar ..
what have amd done for me for the last 4 yrs+ ?????? **** all so i will wait to see what the 56 is on black Friday ...if it an't good enough i'll keep my failing r290 till it dies or navi comes out ..

Well unfortunately dude,the market leader is leading pricing. The same as Apple has made a high end phone £1000+ so it reduces pressure down the line. Samsung,Huawei,etc have all pushed up phones to even higher levels,even though they "undercut" Apple.

The fact is people set the pricing for GTX1070 performance at between £350 to £450,when the card it replaced was £250. Vega ended up being barely able to match the GTX1070/GTX1080 with more expensive technology which is their fault.

The fact is there were GTX1070 cards for £350 back during Christmas 2017 and 2018. I wouldn't lock myself to AMD if you need an upgrade.

But again you are avoiding the question we asked.

Was the 570 an upgrade for a 290 or a 390?

Is the 590 and upgrade for the 580, or even the 390x?

So if the 590 is £250+, what good is it really to us? Who is this card aimed at? Those who could have had the 290/390/480/580 for 5 years but just never got round to buying one?

AMD is selling faster midrange cards with more extras than the competitor,so if the competitor does not react,the pricing will stay until they do.

Also the same arguments were made about the GTX1060,etc who would want one?? Its increasing month on month in marketshare. I think you forget an enthuisiast forum is not indicative of gamers in general.

Their high end card well its probably more expensive to make than a GTX1080TI,so they screwed themselves there and hence can't fight a price war with Nvidia,so there you go.

If its not good value don't buy it. The price will drop. I had an Ivy Bridge Xeon E3 for 5+ years,since it was £170 new. Intel then locked Xeon E3 CPUs out of consumer boards. Yet,for years after that could I get a Core i7 new for anywhere near that??Nope. So I held onto it until I could get something better.

I remember telling people years ago,all this Titan milarky would just push up top tier pricing meaning less presure down the range. It is what has happened. People voted with their pockets. They paid £100 to £200 more to get a GTX1070 over what a GTX970 cost meaning price/performance ended up stagnating. AMD screwed up and mining hit,so that kibbled any real chance of the GTX1070/GTX1080 really being put under pressure,and Nvidia is more worried about getting rid of faulty GTX1080 cards as GTX1060 ones. The GTX1060 and GTX1050TI are selling in droves,so to undercut how much do you need to do?? Not apparently much it seems.

So maybe instead of argueing with me,then you need to ask why all these people are buying these cards at current pricing in droves?

They are the answer to why companies don't feel the need to push too hard.

Now it could be quite possible next year we have a nice shiny GTX2060 closer to a GTX1070 at some point,etc but that is your best hope,or that Navi will be a nice bump in performance. But OFC,I dunno what the exchange rates will be if our exit is not orderly,so even if the GTX2060 gives you what you want or Navi does,I expect people complaining next year. Maybe stock up some USD then.

Its fun argueing with you but were are going around in circles,and I think it will become a waste of time for both of us(if not that already)!!

 

[FoxEye]

So you're perfectly happy for AMD's mid-range to stagnate as long as nV's midrange stagnates also.

Furhtermore I'm not allowed to "bash" AMD's midrange offerings even if I'm bashing nV's midrange offerings also, because as far as you're concerned the ball is in nV's court?