2008 Japanese GP - Race 16/18

The Bourdais penalty is absolutely ludicrous. Why not also check the video of the race to see whether any of the cars in front of Massa did anything untoward and grant 25 second penalties to them all, just to ensure that Ferrari wins the championship again.

Bourdais had absolutely no choice in the incident, given that it was Massa that tried to chop across in front of him.

Last season, the McLaren-gate issue, this season the FIA are going all out themselves to bring the sport into disrepute, with results being changed 2 hours after a race has finished
 
Cavallino said:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKvZE0iuU8

At the point when the clip pauses, you can see that Sebastian has plenty of track to his RIGHT side. He didnt need to drift left towards Massa.
And from that shot, Massa is ahead in the corner, he has the corner, I think the penalty is justified.
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What you see if Bourdais starting to lose the back end as he stamps on the brakes. That's why there's air to his right.
 
Well, the poor attempt at saving face that the FIA pulled by handing penalties to both Massa and Hamilton has been overthrown by the farsicle penalty for Bourdais. Basically, Bourdais has been penalised for "being in Massas way".

Well done Stewards... once again proving F1 is run by men in suits and dodgy dealings, not the actual track action so much of us give up time and money to see.
 
Without offending anyone I think Hamilton was wrong on the 1st corner. He does what he always does and loses his head and tries to win grand prixs when he does not need to. After the 1st corner I was asking myself why did he just not tuck in behind Kimi and Kovi. Mclaren would have asked Kovi to let Hamilton by so he could attack Kimi.

I have watched this video a dozen times

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5KReYtyew

And Hamilton does outbrake himself but its a move he did not need to make. But he did and it threw Kimi off the track. Also Kovi followed up behind and hit Kimi and forced him even wider. So IMO the Lewis penalty was fair.

As for the Massa v Hamilton incident I think again the penalty was fair as Massa could have avoided the collision. But being a Ferrari fan I welcomed Lewis's spin. As for the Bourdais incident Massa was in the wrong. I think the stewards were expecting Bourdais to just vanish into thin air. But the irony is that in punishing Bourdais it benifited not only Massa but also it helped Vettel and Webber.

Also its getting really tiresome reading all the FIA loves Ferrari comments. I would love to see next year maybe BMW joint the title fight and then when some penalty is handed out due to some incident between say Lewis and Kubica would everyones stance change to FA loves BMW. Its not Ferraris fault that they are Maclarens only main rivals so when a decision goes against Mclaren its naturally going to benefit Ferrari. I do admit there have been dodgey decisions this year but thats the stewards fault.
 
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IPBA said:
As for the Massa v Hamilton incident I think again the penalty was fair as Massa could have avoided the collision. But being a Ferrari fan I welcomed Lewis's spin. As for the Bourdais incident Massa was in the wrong. I think the stewards were expecting Bourdais to just vanish into thin air. But the irony is that in punishing Bourdais it benifited not only Massa but also it helped Vettel and Webber.
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Benefitted Vettel and Webber by giving them a few extra points. Benefitted Massa by giving him a better chance in the championship.
 
Slam62 said:
hmm are you serious?
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Go on, take a wild guess.

Why wouldn't I be serious?

Slam62 said:
if you watch the replay, it clearly shows that Hammi was on his own, Kovi drove into Kimi and forced him wide.
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Now, I could have sworn Hamilton swung into the path of Kovy just before the braking zone. But hell, I could be wrong. It was hours ago after all. I've got the race taped anyway. So later on once I've got enough beer in me to stand the irritation at how far F1 has fallen and at the wasted potential I might watch it again.

Actually, I'm being unfair. Today, controversy aside, wasn't bad at all as modern F1 goes. We had some decent action, including that overtaking move Massa made on Webber which I think has to go up on the short-list for pass of the year. Webber moved right over, and Massa still made the move stick. Even with better straight-line speed, that was dicey. Just a pity Kimi didn't fancy trying something like that on Kubica when he still had the tyres to make it work.

See, folks? We don't need NASCAR levels of overtaking, we just need it to be actually possible. Fuji's layout (despite the efforts of Tilke) means that overtaking is very much possible - big long straight for drafting*, followed by a nice braking zone for a semi-slow T1. Maybe with the rule changes for next year we'll see a few more overtaking spots appear. It might even make Hungary interesting....well, maybe not. It took Nigel Mansell to show overtaking was possible there.

***edit***

* - woops, slipstreaming not drafting. Talking about F1 here, Jimmy....not NASCAR! *smacks side of head*
 
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Didn't really see much wrong with the Bourdais incident, but I don't think it'll change the outcome much. If Hamilton can't outscore Massa over the next 2 races, he doesn't deserve to win IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Hamilton - he'll definitely win the WDC sometime soon. But this season Massa has driven at least as well, and exceeded expectations of him not forgetting he's his fair share of bad luck too.
 
Yet again a better race for Torro Rosso than Red Bull. How big is the difference in budget between the 2 teams. Red Bull have become more disappointing the longer the season has gone on. I don't expect them to be beating the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren but to be beaten by Torro Rosso is a joke.
 
Im on the hamilton side of the many biased conversations in this thread.

However, no FIA judgement caused Hamilton to lose the race today. He did all the work himself in the first 15 seconds of the race. Regardless of whether he desvered a drive through he would have pitted anyway for knackered tyres.

Again, its all down to him. He and he alone will have lost the title and handed it to Massa unless he takes 10 points in China.

He doesnt stand a chance if it goes to Brazil.

Massas greater experience and level headedness under pressure could be the thing that wins him the title.
 
I am going to bring up Spa again to illustrate inconsistancies, not for the Hamilton incident, but for the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8
Watch Trulli i think, out braking himself, very much like Hamilton did, and push Alono off. Did Trulli get penalised?

And any one who says Massa didn't deserve a penalty, not only did he cut the corner (all four wheels outside of the white line) and not back off (getting an advantage?), but he also cused an avoidable incident.

I won't comment on the Bourdais incident because I have only seen the one angle showed on TV which doesn't show whether MAssa turned right or Bourdais turned left. If we get a front on angle it might be more obvious.
 
spoonz said:
However, no FIA judgement caused Hamilton to lose the race today. He did all the work himself in the first 15 seconds of the race. Regardless of whether he desvered a drive through he would have pitted anyway for knackered tyres.
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So you're saying a 30 second pit stop + 20 second drive-through equals the time lost for a 30 second pit stop.

If he had just pitted he would have been last by maybe 15-20 seconds. Instead he ended up 50 odd seconds.
Which are you more likely to be able to recover?
 
El_Watcher said:
So you're saying a 30 second pit stop + 20 second drive-through equals the time lost for a 30 second pit stop.

If he had just pitted he would have been last by maybe 15-20 seconds. Instead he ended up 50 odd seconds.
Which are you more likely to be able to recover?
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No im saying regardless of the penalty, he was out of the points due to the risk he took when he didnt need to.

Following Raikonnen the first corner, and for the whole race, in second would have been preferable.
 
spoonz said:
Massas greater experience and level headedness under pressure
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I just want to quote that, as I think it shows perfectly just how far Massa has come since he joined Ferrari.

I know dannyjo22 still thinks he is the 'worst Ferrari driver evarrr!!!' (conveniently forgetting Ivan Capelli's '92 horror show ;)), but I honestly think Massa can take this title.
 
Scottland said:
Didn't really see much wrong with the Bourdais incident, but I don't think it'll change the outcome much. If Hamilton can't outscore Massa over the next 2 races, he doesn't deserve to win IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Hamilton - he'll definitely win the WDC sometime soon. But this season Massa has driven at least as well, and exceeded expectations of him not forgetting he's his fair share of bad luck too.
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with the FIA help at Spa and here being so obvious then Ferrari SHOULD win both titles

spoonz said:
No im saying regardless of the penalty, he was out of the points due to the risk he took when he didnt need to.

Following Raikonnen the first corner, and for the whole race, in second would have been preferable.
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Except that incident didnt cost him all the places - the Massa incident did which wasnt Lewis's fault at all (and Massa benefitted easily from that even allowing for the drive thru he was given)
 
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