2011 Team mate Wars

[dannyjo22]

Thanks for putting this together in a place for easy reference danny. Another stat that might be good in here is average qualifying difference. It's one of those stats that can be really telling, such as Rosberg averaging 7 tenths faster than Schumi in quali so far this season. That's an incredible amount. Also it's a stat that isn't readily available anywhere.

Here you go

Difficult because you can only do the time in the session where they both set a time. So with MS who has failed so admirably to get into Q3 in comparison to his team mate the times have to be taken 3 times from Q2 and once from Q3.

Average qualifying gaps after Turkey

Vettel to Webber -0.594
Hamilton to Button -0.261
Alonso to Massa -0.336
Rosberg to M Sch -0.673
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.83
Barrichello to Maldonado -0.276
di Resta to Sutil -1.197
Kobayashi to Perez -0.452
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.17
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.388
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.861
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.09

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Di Resta 1.2 ahead.. that's impressive, considering Sutil is so well thought of.

 

[sunama]

Average qualifying gaps after Turkey

Vettel to Webber -0.594
Hamilton to Button -0.261
Alonso to Massa -0.336
Rosberg to M Sch -0.673
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.83
Barrichello to Maldonado -0.276
di Resta to Sutil -1.197
Kobayashi to Perez -0.452
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.17
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.388
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.861
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.09

I love stats.

Of great interest to me were the times of Di Riesta and MSc.

I never realised that Di Riesta was qualifying that far ahead of his team-mate, Sutil, who is no slouch. An average of 1s/lap is shocking. Most drivers would consider their job to be under threat if they were outperformed so comprehensively. If he is genuinely this fast, Perhaps Ferrari should make a play for him next season. He can learn from Alonso for the next few years, before Alonso leaves and Di Riesta takes over as the lead driver.

Judging by the name, I assume he has Italian blood as well, which will suit Ferrari.

MSc: this guy seriously needs to give up and let another driver have a go, in what is a decent seat. I don't rate Rosberg too highly, so its embarrassing when I see arguably the most complete F1 driver of all time, get beat by a driver of Rosberg's calibre. If Hamilton or Alonso were beating MSc, you could argue that he isn't doing such a bad job, but against Rosberg?

Have read of what Jonny Herbert thinks.
http://www.thenational.ae/sport/formula-one/schumacher-left-behind-by-young-drivers

PS: Danny, can you add all these stats to the first post of this thread? Make sure that the first post of your thread has the latest stats. Thanks

 

[dannyjo22]

Danny, can you add all these stats to the first post of this thread? Make sure that the first post of your thread has the latest stats. Thanks

Yeah I'm working nights at the minute but when I'm off I intend to try and tidy it up and add Average Qualifying and Race finish positions as well in one post.

Agree with Di Resta, that stat surprised me as well. Stunning gap.

 

[Lopéz]

I don't rate Rosberg too highly

I know you don't rate Rosberg, but most people in F1 rate him very highly, so my guess is you're wrong and they aren't.

 

[Johnz0r]

I know you don't rate Rosberg, but most people in F1 rate him very highly, so my guess is you're wrong and they aren't.

I have to agree, I think Rosberg is doing a really fine job. Yes the performances are being highlighted due to his performances against Michael, but take that out of the equation for one second.

He has led the most laps bar Vettel this season, says it all really. Not to mention he is getting every little bit out of that awful Merc in qualifying at least. The race pace of the MGP is not there yet though.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Rosberg is nothing, if not consistent. I wouldn't say he's amazing, but a good solid driver for Mercedes to build the car from.. unlike Schumacher that is all over the place.

 

[sunama]

Its always difficult to judge how good a driver in comparison to other drivers.
This is why until a driver goes up, head to head, in the same team, it is difficult to say who is better.

For a fact we know that Alonso and Hamilton are probably equal, with Alonso edging it (more titles, more race wins, finished on equal points with Hamilton in 2007).

We also know for a fact that Button is not as good as Hamilton (Hamilton beat him in 2010 and is doing the same again in 2011).

Now lets move on to Rosberg. When I stated that Rosberg isn't that great, we are comparing Rosberg with the best driver in F1 (currently). We are comparing him against Hamilton, Alonso and probably Vettel.

If I were ranking Rosberg I would put him behind Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso. Possibly No.5, 6 or 7.

MSc should not be compared with "somebody who is doing a fine job". He should be compared with the top drivers in the current era, which does not include Rosberg (93 starts: 0 race wins, 0 pole positions, 0 WDC). I know that some people rate drivers who have 0 race wins highly...but I don't. Plain and simple....that's how I see it.

Keep in mind MSc was a driver of the absolute highest quality. In his heydey he would've beaten with ease, a driver like Rosberg who has not a single race win to his name.

I assure you, MSc did not come back in to F1 to get beat by a driver who has never won an F1 race. He has come back to lead his team...to get the entire Mercedes team to believe in him and to do for Mercedes what he did at Bennetton and Ferrari. He needs the entire team to be working for his cause. He needs to get the team to design the car exclusively for him (and for nobody else). By getting beaten by Rosberg, MSc is not achieving this.

I can only think that perhaps people have forgotten just what MSc achieved. Let me remind you: 91 race wins, 7 WDCs. To put it into context, if Rosberg were to win every single race from here on in, assuming a 17 race season, it would take him about 5 seasons to beat MSc's race tally. THAT is why I am talking about Rosberg in a derogatory way (when comparing him with MSc).

Rosberg and MSc simply shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

PS. Notice I've used cold hard facts/stats to back up my opinions. I would like to see somebody make a counter argument, FOR Rosberg, using a better argument than:

...most people in F1 rate him very highly, so my guess is you're wrong and they aren't.

I love a good debate so lets hear it

 

[SKILL]

Its always difficult to judge how good a driver in comparison to other drivers.
This is why until a driver goes up, head to head, in the same team, it is difficult to say who is better.

For a fact we know that Alonso and Hamilton are probably equal, with Alonso edging it (more titles, more race wins, finished on equal points with Hamilton in 2007).

We also know for a fact that Button is not as good as Hamilton (Hamilton beat him in 2010 and is doing the same again in 2011).

Now lets move on to Rosberg. When I stated that Rosberg isn't that great, we are comparing Rosberg with the best driver in F1 (currently). We are comparing him against Hamilton, Alonso and probably Vettel.

If I were ranking Rosberg I would put him behind Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso. Possibly No.5, 6 or 7.

MSc should not be compared with "somebody who is doing a fine job". He should be compared with the top drivers in the current era, which does not include Rosberg (93 starts: 0 race wins, 0 pole positions, 0 WDC). I know that some people rate drivers who have 0 race wins highly...but I don't. Plain and simple....that's how I see it.

Keep in mind MSc was a driver of the absolute highest quality. In his heydey he would've beaten with ease, a driver like Rosberg who has not a single race win to his name.

I assure you, MSc did not come back in to F1 to get beat by a driver who has never won an F1 race. He has come back to lead his team...to get the entire Mercedes team to believe in him and to do for Mercedes what he did at Bennetton and Ferrari. He needs the entire team to be working for his cause. He needs to get the team to design the car exclusively for him (and for nobody else). By getting beaten by Rosberg, MSc is not achieving this.

I can only think that perhaps people have forgotten just what MSc achieved. Let me remind you: 91 race wins, 7 WDCs. To put it into context, if Rosberg were to win every single race from here on in, assuming a 17 race season, it would take him about 5 seasons to beat MSc's race tally. THAT is why I am talking about Rosberg in a derogatory way (when comparing him with MSc).

Rosberg and MSc simply shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

PS. Notice I've used cold hard facts/stats to back up my opinions. I would like to see somebody make a counter argument, FOR Rosberg, using a better argument than:



I love a good debate so lets hear it

What you've done is put forward a stunning argument, not for the fact that Rosberg is crap, but that the saying 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' is so very true.

So a driver who has only ever driven for Williams and Mercedes and hasn't won is instantly crap, the same driver who has outscored and outraced every driver he's been pitted against in the same car.

And on the Hamilton/Alonso, comparing wins/championships, did you stop to consider that Alonso has been in the sport for 6 more years? or that he's been in a car that realistically had a chance of winning the title for 3 years compared to 2 for Hamilton?

In fact other than cherry picking facts and a liberal dosing of dreamland thinking do you actually have an argument?

 

[pingwing]

You have to look at MSc's career only from his come back really. Too much has changed with him and F1 in the year's out has left him just off the pace.

Sunama is right, MSc has achieved so much, redefined what it is to be a great in F1. But to see him as that great now in F1 is laughable as he just isnt performing. He's been dominated by Rosberg. The points and races positions show it.

Rosberg is a very good driver, not a proven race winner, he hasnt had the car or chance, but the potential from his podium scoring opportunities is there and that's what makes him look better than MSc

 

[Setroc]

Here you go

Difficult because you can only do the time in the session where they both set a time. So with MS who has failed so admirably to get into Q3 in comparison to his team mate the times have to be taken 3 times from Q2 and once from Q3.

Average qualifying gaps after Turkey

Vettel to Webber -0.594
Hamilton to Button -0.261
Alonso to Massa -0.336
Rosberg to M Sch -0.673
Petrov to Heidfeld -0.83
Barrichello to Maldonado -0.276
di Resta to Sutil -1.197
Kobayashi to Perez -0.452
Buemi to Alguersuari -0.17
Kovalainen to Trulli -0.388
Liuzzi to Karthi -0.861
Glock to D'Ambrosio -0.09

Thanks, it will be interesting to see how that develops. I'm surprised by how large the differences are in general. I would have expected most of the midfield and lower teams to have two fairly evenly matched team mates, but it looks like every team except Virgin and Toro Rosso have one driver who is performing significantly better - at least in quali - than their team mate.

 

[Mr Jack]

Difficult because you can only do the time in the session where they both set a time. So with MS who has failed so admirably to get into Q3 in comparison to his team mate the times have to be taken 3 times from Q2 and once from Q3.

Given the problems with calculating these stats, how meaningful do you think these actually are? I'm inclined to think these numbers aren't all that meaningful. I'd be more interested in the average number of places between team mates.

 

[Mr Jack]

I never realised that Di Riesta was qualifying that far ahead of his team-mate, Sutil, who is no slouch. An average of 1s/lap is shocking. Most drivers would consider their job to be under threat if they were outperformed so comprehensively. If he is genuinely this fast, Perhaps Ferrari should make a play for him next season. He can learn from Alonso for the next few years, before Alonso leaves and Di Riesta takes over as the lead driver.

I don't believe that it's meaningful, the only reason it's that high is because of the Australian Qualifying where Sutil spun his car and completely compromised his qualifying times and was thus almost 4s slower in Q2, his Q3 time was actually half a second faster than Di Resta's.

Not that Di Resta isn't doing brilliantly; I just don't think that figure actually means much.

 

[Setroc]

Given the problems with calculating these stats, how meaningful do you think these actually are? I'm inclined to think these numbers aren't all that meaningful. I'd be more interested in the average number of places between team mates.

I think it's a better indication of ultimate pace than anything else. In a race, a lot of things can happen. Drivers can have different amounts of traffic to deal with, they can have pitstops that go horribly wrong, team strategies or tyre choices that cost them a lot of time. There's a lot of variables to keep track of. But in qualifying, not always but in general each driver gets a chance to show his pace in equal track conditions and with no traffic, and that makes it very meaningful imo.

 

[Christo]

The Hamilton Button quali time stats are pretty close, quite surprised. Button is keeping his end up - a great pairing Id say.

 

[Kenai]

For a fact we know that Alonso and Hamilton are probably equal, with Alonso edging it (more titles, more race wins, finished on equal points with Hamilton in 2007).

Alonso: 2 Championships in 10 seasons of racing
Lewis: 1 Championship in 4 seasons of racing

Alonso: 26 wins in 163 races (Roughly 1 win every 6 races)
Lewis: 15 wins in 75 races (1 win in every 5 races)

Stats can paint any picture you want, even using the same stats as you I can paint completely the opposite picture, with Hamilton having a higher win and championship rate than Alonso does.

If I were ranking Rosberg I would put him behind Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso. Possibly No.5, 6 or 7.

It was barely 2 seasons ago you were criticising Button for being a journeyman and now he's one of the 4 best drivers on the grid? Either he's made one hell of an improvement or your judge of a drivers abilities is somewhat suspect.

I know that some people rate drivers who have 0 race wins highly...but I don't. Plain and simple....that's how I see it.

Because you're short sighted and you don't look beyond the numbers as to why that might be, which is especially important in a sport like F1 where the car matters so much - Alonso had an appalling run for a couple of years from a statistical viewpoint after his titles - did he suddenly become crap or is just that perhaps simple numbers are not anywhere near enough to judge the skill of an individual?

Perhaps you should take the time to look at how a driver actually drives and what he achieves relative to his expected standing etc. etc. rather than rely on raw numbers that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Weebull]

I guess Kubica must be only barely above rubbish with his one win then.

 

[Duke]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/05/14/team-mates/

 

[Mr Jack]

I think it's a better indication of ultimate pace than anything else. In a race, a lot of things can happen. Drivers can have different amounts of traffic to deal with, they can have pitstops that go horribly wrong, team strategies or tyre choices that cost them a lot of time. There's a lot of variables to keep track of. But in qualifying, not always but in general each driver gets a chance to show his pace in equal track conditions and with no traffic, and that makes it very meaningful imo.

There's an argument that qualifying is a better indicator than race, but the trouble is that because of the knock-out format and any curious events (Sutil vs. Di Resta and Sutil's spin being a case in point) the average difference doesn't give a particularly good indication of the gap between the drivers.

 

[mmj_uk]

I don't rate Rosberg too highly, so its embarrassing when I see arguably the most complete F1 driver of all time, get beat by a driver of Rosberg's calibre. If Hamilton or Alonso were beating MSc, you could argue that he isn't doing such a bad job, but against Rosberg?

With respect you have not yet seen him drive in a competitive car.

Do you think "the most complete F1 driver of all time" MSC would have won 7 world championships driving in a mid-field team? without the right wheels under him he'd have gone down in history as just another average driver like Button was portrayed before his return with Brawn GP.