2022 mini-budget discussion

[Uther]

I don't think many people think that at all. They have almost always gone to great lengths to stress that its a cap on unit price and the average person won't pay more than £2500 based on average usage.

Well, Truss did, so it wouldn't surprise me if some people get caught out...

Liz Truss wrongly claims 'no-one' will pay more than £2,500 in energy bills

Liz Truss has wrongly claimed that “nobody” will pay more than £2,500 in energy bills from 1 October. During a morning broadcast round today, 29 September, the prime minister told BBC Radio Kent and BBC Radio Leeds that the maximum amount households will pay is £2,500 under the Energy Price...

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I don't think many people think that at all. They have almost always gone to great lengths to stress that its a cap on unit price and the average person won't pay more than £2500 based on average usage. The figures for energy have always related to "the average household" for as long as I can remember. Our usage just happens to sit around the figure thats always used as the average so its very easy to know how much our energy costs are likely to be if we didn't change our behaviour from previous years.

My point was that I can stomach £2500. I would be very unhappy with £5000 and would do everything to cut back if that was the case. As it is, everyone is subsidising the energy costs of those who are not going to cut back. i.e. myself. The more energy you use, the more you are pushing the burden onto the tax payers.

It should 100% be a tiered system of unit price, especially if there is talk of rationing at any point. Once you start getting beyond the average usage, the price cap should probably start to increase.

I disagree, many seem to think its a price cap, not a unit price cap, and I have noticed quite subtle efforts to reinforce this recently that were not there before.

Problem with tiered pricing is it introduces a lot of issues that flat does not, solar, batteries, does 1kwh of elec = 1kwh of gas, ie do they take total energy or have sep splits for gas and elec, how do those unable to change well not end up screwed (typically those most needy are lest able to change) etc

 

[mid_gen]

I disagree, many seem to think its a price cap, not a unit price cap, and I have noticed quite subtle efforts to reinforce this recently that were not there before.

Good thing we have a competent government and the Prime Minister wasn't doing radio interview rounds telling people it's a price cap eh!

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Good thing we have a competent government and the Prime Minister wasn't doing radio interview rounds telling people it's a price cap eh!

Well to steal one of Mr Boycotts' fav comments, "more brains in a pork pie!"

 

[fez]

Problem with tiered pricing is it introduces a lot of issues that flat does not, solar, batteries, does 1kwh of elec = 1kwh of gas, ie do they take total energy or have sep splits for gas and elec, how do those unable to change well not end up screwed (typically those most needy are lest able to change) etc

I'm not quite sure what you mean. There are 2 caps, one for gas and one for electricity so the tiers would probably differ between the two. I don't think that there are going to be that many people that are the most needy who are going to be using huge amounts over the average usage. Those people could always be covered with an application for special circumstances. If you are referring to people with 6 kids on benefits then I don't have a wealth of sympathy for those people but they would obviously be able to apply for an exemption.

I think the small amount of extra administrative overhead would be worth it for the (potentially 10s of billions saved).

 

[dowie]

I don't think many people think that at all. They have almost always gone to great lengths to stress that its a cap on unit price and the average person won't pay more than £2500 based on average usage.

Yup indeed, you'd have to be pretty dense to think the price cap applied to the total bill rather than per unit used, like as if they're getting free energy above some amount.

Ah I was going to use £2500 this year anyway, might as well set up a bunch of mining rigs if the government is paying.

 

[do_ron_ron]

OPEC just threw a spanner in the Truss's works by announcing a 2 million barrel/day cut in output. Cue higher price for oil and gas which will lead to higher inflation etc.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. There are 2 caps, one for gas and one for electricity so the tiers would probably differ between the two. I don't think that there are going to be that many people that are the most needy who are going to be using huge amounts over the average usage. Those people could always be covered with an application for special circumstances. If you are referring to people with 6 kids on benefits then I don't have a wealth of sympathy for those people but they would obviously be able to apply for an exemption.

I think the small amount of extra administrative overhead would be worth it for the (potentially 10s of billions saved).

I mean there are people who use elec only, some who use gas and elec, some who use elec plus oil. Just for starters.
Does someone who only uses elec get just the elec pricing or do they get a different one. IE if they are using their elec for heating and hot water do they get a different set of tiered pricing compared to me using gas for those things?

Better IMO to start pushing out time based pricing to everyone to encourage better spread of and hence lower cost of the total energy bill

 

[adidan]

I mean there are people who use elec only, some who use gas and elec, some who use elec plus oil. Just for starters.
Does someone who only uses elec get just the elec pricing or do they get a different one. IE if they are using their elec for heating and hot water do they get a different set of tiered pricing compared to me using gas for those things?

Better IMO to start pushing out time based pricing to everyone to encourage better spread of and hence lower cost of the total energy bill

AFAIK the caps are the caps are the caps.

Heating oil is a different cap, my brother has that not sure if he's getting any 'rebate' as the 400 quid is for electricity only I believe (could be wrong).

Edit: ignore me looks like I'm jumping into a conversation and being irrelevant

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

AFAIK the caps are the caps are the caps.

Heating oil is a different cap, my brother has that not sure if he's getting any 'rebate' as the 400 quid is for electricity only I believe (could be wrong).

They are right now, but if we had variable (tiered) pricing instead of caps it would be very critical. Which is why i think its a bad idea personally, far too many combinations to make fair.
Imagine if you had the same elec units at the same pricing as a dual fuel user as someone else was given who only used elec!

 

[Greebo]

AFAIK the caps are the caps are the caps.

Heating oil is a different cap, my brother has that not sure if he's getting any 'rebate' as the 400 quid is for electricity only I believe (could be wrong).

Edit: ignore me looks like I'm jumping into a conversation and being irrelevant

Heating oil homes get £500 instead of £400 but so far the Govt havent said how we are supposed to get this

In a statement, the government said: "The government will also provide an additional payment of £100 to households across the UK who are not able to receive support for their heating costs through the Energy Price Guarantee.

"This might be because they live in an area of the UK that is not served by the gas grid and is to compensate for the rising costs of alternative fuels such as heating oil."

The £100 will be delivered as a top-up to the £400 Energy Bills Support payment, which is going to all UK households.

Noe my electric supplier has already started paying the £400 through my electric bill but obviously not the £500 as how do they know I am entitled to the extra £100???

I can't fine anywhere about how you are supposed to get the extra £100 (which is an insult as the average household is paying over £3000 per annum in heating oil and the price has tripled in the last few years but they only get £100 off).

I always order my heating oil from whoever is cheapest on the day, i am not in any monthly direct debit with anybody

Anybody know how I get me £100 please?

 

[adidan]

They are right now, but if we had variable (tiered) pricing instead of caps it would be very critical. Which is why i think its a bad idea personally, far too many combinations to make fair.
Imagine if you had the same elec units at the same pricing as a dual fuel user as someone else was given who only used elec!

I think the head of Ovo was suggesting such a thing to make it cheaper for small users. Not sure of the details he had in mind.

 

[Mrwong]

OPEC just threw a spanner in the Truss's works by announcing a 2 million barrel/day cut in output. Cue higher price for oil and gas which will lead to higher inflation etc.

threw a spanner for the west, especially Europe. Shows you SA only cares about money, not people. The faster we build that fusion reactor in Nottingham the better.

 

[john_smith]

Heating oil homes get £500 instead of £400 but so far the Govt havent said how we are supposed to get this



Noe my electric supplier has already started paying the £400 through my electric bill but obviously not the £500 as how do they know I am entitled to the extra £100???

I can't fine anywhere about how you are supposed to get the extra £100 (which is an insult as the average household is paying over £3000 per annum in heating oil and the price has tripled in the last few years but they only get £100 off).

I always order my heating oil from whoever is cheapest on the day, i am not in any monthly direct debit with anybody

Anybody know how I get me £100 please?

I'd like to know as well pleaase if anybody knows.

I get my oild from here: https://theheatingoilclub.co.uk Ordered at 90p recently and then canclled as it fell. Jumped back in at 82p and looks like that will rach the delivery point as the price is rising again. Kicking myself as it was falling down and got to 77p before the sharp rise after the mini budget.
I refresh the quote price daily at the moment.

 

[Mrwong]

You mean like these treasury "adverts"?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575841941866000385

The average sold house price in London is £727743. 500k is a flat.

 

[fez]

I mean there are people who use elec only, some who use gas and elec, some who use elec plus oil. Just for starters.
Does someone who only uses elec get just the elec pricing or do they get a different one. IE if they are using their elec for heating and hot water do they get a different set of tiered pricing compared to me using gas for those things?

Better IMO to start pushing out time based pricing to everyone to encourage better spread of and hence lower cost of the total energy bill

That still doesn't sound that complex. If you are on an electricity only plan then they will have all the data they need to know what the average usage for that is, much like they do for dual fuel. You simply create a tier for that.

The vast majority of people use either electricity or dual fuel. Some use oil and electricity. I'm sure a few even use all 3. Thats still not a complex system to manage whereby you heavily incentivise people not to use more energy than they have to.

Making it cheaper at off peak times would also help but I fear this is just another policy that isn't targeted enough towards those most at need.

 

[rG-tom]

The average sold house price in London is £727743. 500k is a flat.

ok, and that 727k average will include non-terraced houses.




Terraced was £562,741 in Jan 22

House Price Statistics - UK House Price Index

landregistry.data.gov.uk

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That still doesn't sound that complex. If you are on an electricity only plan then they will have all the data they need to know what the average usage for that is, much like they do for dual fuel. You simply create a tier for that.

The vast majority of people use either electricity or dual fuel. Some use oil and electricity. I'm sure a few even use all 3. Thats still not a complex system to manage whereby you heavily incentivise people not to use more energy than they have to.

Making it cheaper at off peak times would also help but I fear this is just another policy that isn't targeted enough towards those most at need.

Again but you only picked on that one part, what about the other parts that are a challenge
People in poor rented housing do we penalise them
People with solar generation and or batteries looking like low users but probably far more likely to be well off
Those with medical needs
Old people who need the heat more
Those forced to work from home
People with Evs which we are trying to encourage the switch to
What about people who take gas from one supplier and elec elsewhere

Tiered pricing is far from fair unless you gather a load of info

 

[fez]

Again but you only picked on that one part, what about the other parts that are a challenge
People in poor rented housing do we penalise them
People with solar generation and or batteries looking like low users but probably far more likely to be well off
Those with medical needs
Old people who need the heat more
Those forced to work from home
People with Evs which we are trying to encourage the switch to
What about people who take gas from one supplier and elec elsewhere

Tiered pricing is far from fair unless you gather a load of info

The average is the average. Most housing stock in this country isn't well insulated and great on energy usage. Hell, if you want to, put the tiers in above the average usage point.

People with solar and batteries won't benefit that much from the cap either way.

Those with medical needs can get an exemption like any other special case.

People on pensions can get an exemption if needs be.

Working from home is much cheaper than going to an office for the majority of people. Extra heating isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of the savings. If I was going to london each day or even driving to work I would probably spend between £5-50/day vs the few quid extra the heating would cost.

Have lower cost overnight tariffs. Few people are going to be going to EVs over the next few years even with the cap unless they are quite wealthy. I don't think this is the thing that would inhibit their uptake.

There is no fair system but you weight up what is the most fair. And I don't think that subsidising the highest users of gas and electricity to the same level as the normal users is the right way to do it. The cost of this is astronomical and the current plan is a bad one in my opinion.

 

[wildman]

OPEC just threw a spanner in the Truss's works by announcing a 2 million barrel/day cut in output. Cue higher price for oil and gas which will lead to higher inflation etc.

already started, Brent crude up nearly $1.50 just in the last few hours of trading

Brent Crude Oil: Latest price and chart

View the latest price for Brent Crude Oil, including historical data and customisable charts, plus Crude Oil ETCs and the latest research and news.

www.hl.co.uk

will be back at 100 in a matter of days so no doubt we will be going back up to close to £2/l at the pump soon