20mph residential speed limit (replacing 30mph)

[EddScott]

I live in West Wales and locals are absolutely frothing over this.

My house isn't on a main road but the road can be busy, has a zebra crossing to a childrens park and some idiots just accelerate off the roundabout at the bottom of the road and they're 50+ by the time they get to the crossing.

The only saving grace is the road is mostly straight so you can see people waiting to cross - although the amount of cars that just don't even look is astounding. I've asked the council to consider raising the crossing but they're not interested - they like to wait until a child dies before putting in humps (what happened previously when locals asked for humps to slow traffic)

This whole 20mph really doesn't bother me. It's crazy how people are getting so upset over it.

 

[Greebo]

It doesn't work that way though:
- 35mph is generally ignored too. Speed cameras have not been recalibrated, so the only risk to ignoring the 20mph is an actual police speed trap (I've not seen one for years).
- As 20mph was previously only reserved for residential zones, unlike other speed limits where 10% is generally accepted, officially there is no "leeway" in a 20 zone. Police can prosecute at 21mph and as far as I know this policy has not been changed.

There may not be the 10% + 2mph "leeway" on 20mph zones but there is certainly the scale for the punishment.

21-30 Is Band A
31-41 is Band B
Over 41 is Band C

With 30mph limit the bands are
31-40 Band A
41-50 Band B
Over 51 Band C

Band A is 3 points
Band B is disqualify for 7 -28 days or 4-6 points
Band C is disqualify for 7 to 56 days or 6 points.

Bands B and C carry a fine of 150% of offender's weekly income as well.

So lets take somebody speeding at 35mph

In a 30mph zone they might even get away with no points/fine as they are under the 10%+2mph which some police areas adhere to. If not its a £100 fine and 3 points or a speed awareness course.

That same person doing 35mph in a 20mph zone will no longer be able to do a speed awareness course and is now facing disqualification or up to six points and 150% of their weekly income as a fine.

Big difference,

 

[Demon]

So the slower people go, the less attention they pay? Hmmm. I'm not sure about that. They just don't pay attention no matter how fast they're going. Better that they're doing 20mph and not paying attention than 30.

And whilst neither of my near misses were speeding issues, I was hit both times by vehicles doing <20mph due to their manoeuvres. My luck, even though I ended up crawling out from underneath a transit van, I suffered minor cuts and bruises. At 30mph, I'm dead. Twice.

I did a weekend journey, went down to Caldicot (it's been 20mph since 2021 as part of the trial), then we drove down near Salisbury and back to Caldicot..

Salisbury has long stretches of rural roads that are 40mph through many villages, and it was a stark contrast to the 20mph slog in Caldicot, especially when you have not long come off the motorway, the 20mph on very wide roads is weird, it feels so slow you can feel your mind starting to wander..

So I do think it affects everyone's mental attentiveness.. same thing when they had left a 30mph limit on an sparse dual carriageway, the 30mph on a such a large/empty road felt ridiculously slow and you could feel your mind wandering.

 

[HangTime]

Erodes the novel factor of 20s around places like school zones - people will get dulled by doing 20s everywhere residential and so will be paying less attention in specific places where there was a reason to have a lower limit for a short stretch.

I'm in two minds over this.
On the one hand, I agree that 20 is kind of 'unusual' so people will naturally take notice.
On the other hand, if we are relying on the speed limit signs to tell us when to pay attention, that's a bigger problem in itself.

Well it adds 50% more time in all previous 30 zones

Only if you always drive at 30mph in those zones, some of them you won't due to traffic. I remember when I lived in a big city the average speed on 30mph roads was a lot less than 30mph during rush hour.

Salisbury has long stretches of rural roads that are 40mph through many villages, and it was a stark contrast to the 20mph slog in Caldicot, especially when you have not long come off the motorway, the 20mph on very wide roads is weird, it feels so slow you can feel your mind starting to wander..

So I do think it affects everyone's mental attentiveness.. same thing when they had left a 30mph limit on an sparse dual carriageway, the 30mph on a such a large/empty road felt ridiculously slow and you could feel your mind wandering.

North of Salisbury out towards Amesbury etc there are some 60mph roads where the limit is too high IMO. Single lane, sometimes with greenery or hills obscuring the road ahead. So people are doing overtaking manoeuvrers in the oncoming lane at 120mph closing speed with obscured visibility. I'm not saying the underying problem is the speed limit rather than the drivers taking risks, but it might reduce the impact. What you'll find is some drivers will feel more comfortable doing 45-50 along there and then someone behind gets twitchy feet because their dial isn't reading 60 and starting weaving around looking for an opportunity to boot it past them.

 

[Demon]

North of Salisbury out towards Amesbury etc there are some 60mph roads where the limit is too high IMO. Single lane, sometimes with greenery or hills obscuring the road ahead. So people are doing overtaking manoeuvrers in the oncoming lane at 120mph closing speed with obscured visibility. I'm not saying the underying problem is the speed limit rather than the drivers taking risks, but it might reduce the impact. What you'll find is some drivers will feel more comfortable doing 45-50 along there and then someone behind gets twitchy feet because their dial isn't reading 60 and starting weaving around looking for an opportunity to boot it past them.

Agreed, the NSL stretches I was doing 50mph as I was not in a rush and had a surprising number of vans overtaking..

 

[Bear]

Not a chance..

Our new cycle way has narrowed the roads to a point Buses are now instructed to not overtake on a 7 mile stretch of road, with signs saying 'narrow lanes, do not overtake cyclists' (the narrow lanes are the final road width.. it's not temporary!).. so we get 50+ car trains stuck behind a bus that is stuck behind that one cyclist commuter (bandy legged, riding a knobbly tyred mountain bike, wobbling along at 5-10mph), this has led to a massive rise of clearly unrestricted throttle actuated eBikes as they whizz by, overtaking the train of cars/bus at 40mph+, no helmets etc.. The funny thing is if they spot a Police car in the train, they don't slow down, they faux pedal, knowing full well the police won't do anything, and they never do

Mind you, looking at the new eBikes, maybe the answer is, don't get mad, get even.. doing 40mph with no helmet and being able to be part of a 'victim' minority sounds enticing..

I live on a long residential road where chavs regularly drive their cars doing over 60mph on a 30mph, the police know about it due to many complaints and likewise the council know about it but none of them want to do anything about it, so it happens almost daily. Services have been cut to the bone so no one seems to want to do anything

 

[inogen]

I did a weekend journey, went down to Caldicot (it's been 20mph since 2021 as part of the trial), then we drove down near Salisbury and back to Caldicot..

Salisbury has long stretches of rural roads that are 40mph through many villages, and it was a stark contrast to the 20mph slog in Caldicot, especially when you have not long come off the motorway, the 20mph on very wide roads is weird, it feels so slow you can feel your mind starting to wander..

So I do think it affects everyone's mental attentiveness.. same thing when they had left a 30mph limit on an sparse dual carriageway, the 30mph on a such a large/empty road felt ridiculously slow and you could feel your mind wandering.

Your mind wanders at 20 because it's easier to stop if something unexpected happens. That's natural. Something is easier therefore you can pay less attention to it.

It's not a reason to drive faster though is it? If it was, we should all be driving around at 40 and paying more attention than at 30?

 

[Rroff]

I'm in two minds over this.
On the one hand, I agree that 20 is kind of 'unusual' so people will naturally take notice.
On the other hand, if we are relying on the speed limit signs to tell us when to pay attention, that's a bigger problem in itself.

Depends on the mindset of the driver a bit but when I encounter a 20 for a specific reason i.e. school zone it will heighten my senses for that specific hazard i.e. potential for kids to dart out from behind cars. When everywhere is 20 it will dull that response especially the people who are borderline for caring now.

and then someone behind gets twitchy feet because their dial isn't reading 60 and starting weaving around looking for an opportunity to boot it past them.

Monday night caught up with what I thought was a 40 MPH everywhere type with a car tailgating and weaving behind them, eventually chance came up to overtake and the car behind them went, I started to move up anticipating overtaking and the car resumed to a normal speed and continued at a normal speed - they'd just slowed right down due to being tailgated.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Can we make sure we hit all these points please?

 

[200sols]

Only if you always drive at 30mph in those zones, some of them you won't due to traffic. I remember when I lived in a big city the average speed on 30mph roads was a lot less than 30mph during rush hour.

Its not just inner cities though and it doesn't just apply at rush hour. Generally speaking these new limits will increase your journey times, that is the entire aim.

 

[JonRGV250]

Oh dear..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1704144517803176192

 

[Tom_ed1987]

Does anyone actually respect 20mph limits? Every time I've been a passenger with what i'd describe as 'normal' non-car people in a 20 zone, they've basically ignored it.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Does anyone actually respect 20mph limits? Every time I've been a passenger with what i'd describe as 'normal' non-car people in a 20 zone, they've basically ignored it.

After 9 points you will be forced to.

 

[Rroff]

Does anyone actually respect 20mph limits? Every time I've been a passenger with what i'd describe as 'normal' non-car people in a 20 zone, they've basically ignored it.

Two I do quite a lot:

Through the village here which has had a bit of a war against motorists, doesn't have great layout, parking issues and lots of traffic calming: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gFmFUrsDLADLnmop7 it is about 50/50 - probably more like 60% of people not seeing the need to stick strictly to 20.

School zone https://maps.app.goo.gl/tZAtcQBXaxHfudUr5 I'd say about 2/3rds stick to the limit through there - possibly as high as 80%.

As an aside there are a lot of 20s which are not actually enforced 20s (though these two are) - if they don't have the red ring around the limit sign they are not enforced limits, though in some cases it can be indicated by flashing lights when in effect.

 

[Uncle_Gravy]

This came into effect last Sunday, I've already been overtaken by 4 cars whilst doing the new ridiculous 20mph speed limit.

Schools, when driving around a town, hospitals, cul-de-sacs, places of leisure, yes I fully agree it should be 20 as these places that are typically more populated by public walking/cycling around, roads outside these should be 30 and its stupid that these roads have been changed to 20.

 

[Slam62]

20 in the residential streets near my house, I wish they were enforced more. At the end of the day that’s the law.
There is no benefit to going faster anyway, you’re just more likely to kill somebody.

 

[DanF]

Does anyone actually respect 20mph limits? Every time I've been a passenger with what i'd describe as 'normal' non-car people in a 20 zone, they've basically ignored it.

Not really in London, I think more cars speed now than before even though speeds are maybe slightly slower on average. Most people know where the speed cameras are located and just slow down for that small part, then speed up again. The road I'm beside is a full 20 and regularly get cars flying past at 50+ once rush hour traffic has calmed down. The amount of active police looking at speeding is way lower than before, or they are just in unmarked cars more and don't care about speeding.

The issue you get is a small amount will stick to like 18mph to make sure they don't travel a single meter at over 20 on their gauge which will be under reading, these people cause massive tailbacks. Most will speed a bit, maybe up to 30 so slightly slower than before. Some will completely ignore the rules and go past at the 50+. These are the most dangerous drivers for accidents and don't care what signs you put up

 

[Demon]

Your mind wanders at 20 because it's easier to stop if something unexpected happens. That's natural. Something is easier therefore you can pay less attention to it.

It's not a reason to drive faster though is it? If it was, we should all be driving around at 40 and paying more attention than at 30?

Kind of agree on a grossly simplistic level in that the entire premise of improving safety by reducing the speed to 20 assumes your attention and reaction times are approximately a constant therefore improvement in stopping distances are a dominant factor..

I'm talking about your brain switching primary tasks when you start getting bored, such as looking around at things, or having more thoughtful conversations etc, all those can introduce significant time penalties to get back on task and react.

Lets say you do get distracted for 1 second for any reason we can dream up, that is 9M further travelled at 20mph which is the majority of the increased reaction/braking distance if you were travelling at 30..

I'm not advocating driving quickly to save lives, I'm saying that there is a speed to which your brain switches task/off and if those distractions/change of task focus becomes significant, then it negatively affects any perceived benefits and so needs factoring in.. it's not all a simple slow speed = always safer..

 

[Rroff]

Kind of agree on a grossly simplistic level in that the entire premise of improving safety by reducing the speed to 20 assumes your attention and reaction times are approximately a constant therefore improvement in stopping distances are a dominant factor..

I'm talking about your brain switching primary tasks when you start getting bored, such as looking around at things, or having more thoughtful conversations etc, all those can introduce significant time penalties to get back on task and react.

Lets say you do get distracted for 1 second for any reason we can dream up, that is 9M further travelled at 20mph which is the majority of the increased reaction/braking distance if you were travelling at 30..

I'm not advocating driving quickly to save lives, I'm saying that there is a speed to which your brain switches task/off and if those distractions/change of task focus becomes significant, then it negatively affects any perceived benefits and so needs factoring in.. it's not all a simple slow speed = always safer..

Same happens when you drive the same road over and over again on the daily commute, etc. you just don't process things the same as when driving a road you aren't as familiar with, the same kind of thing tends to creep in at 20MPH on roads where 30 would be fine and it is just how our brains work however much people try to work against it, and many won't even try.

 

[Demon]

Same happens when you drive the same road over and over again on the daily commute, etc. you just don't process things the same as when driving a road you aren't as familiar with, the same kind of thing tends to creep in at 20MPH on roads where 30 would be fine and it is just how our brains work however much people try to work against it, and many won't even try.

I used to commute 50 miles each way, predominantly a nice easy bit of M4/M5 motorway, cruise on and I distinctly remember arriving at work one day and hardly remembering the journey in.. that was a single episode and I assumed I was on autopilot and would have reacted accordingly, but none the less, made me think a bit and ensure it did not happen again..