Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[bris]

USA the land of the free where everyone is equal and anything is possible.

Then along comes Trump who divides the country and even tries to overthrow the goverment. Sad thing is he is still so powerful that he will get off scott free with no no consequenses.

Even if he is charged a conviction would be highly improbable because half the jury would be Republicans.

After that 2 supreme court justices who swore under oath tha Roe v Wade would stand as it is a precedent then overturn it first chance they get. Surely Biden could sack them for that, they broke a promise for that exact thing to get elected in the role in the first place.
Trump would, he was good at getting rid of unsackable people, anyone who didn't kiss his ass was chucked right out.

 

[House]

Years ago a "friend" of mine went both barrels on my ex-wife when she had to have our baby removed (ectopic pregnancy), It was a horrible experience and then while supporting my grieving wife I have someone whos meant to be a friend calling us murders on Facebook.

It was then I realised just how nuts these US deep south pro-lifers are. I knew i didn't agree with many of his views (i have plenty of freinds who i dont agree with on many issues) but had no idea how rotten to the core he was.

The US has been like this long before Trump, he just gave the headcases legitimacy.

 

[malachi]

My girlfriend mentioned this a few days ago. My response was,

"Why do you care? You dont live in the US so this doesn't effect you"

 

[Ahleckz]

My girlfriend mentioned this a few days ago. My response was,

"Why do you care? You dont live in the US so this doesn't effect you"

 

[Raumarik]

Years ago a "friend" of mine went both barrels on my ex-wife when she had to have our baby removed (ectopic pregnancy), It was a horrible experience and then while supporting my grieving wife I have someone whos meant to be a friend calling us murders on Facebook.

It was then I realised just how nuts these US deep south pro-lifers are. I knew i didn't agree with many of his views (i have plenty of freinds who i dont agree with on many issues) but had no idea how rotten to the core he was.

The US has been like this long before Trump, he just gave the headcases legitimacy.

I listen to the pro-lifers in the US and I agree with a handful of their points but they are so blinkered in their view, there's no middle ground - much like some of the pro-abortion people. It is a minority on both sides though, but a vocal one.

I've said before I'm pro-choice but I do find it a very difficult topic to discuss. I can't help feel that both sides go too far and in some sense the pro-abortion crowd are getting a bit of blow back as abortion was meant to be rare, which it's not in the US - 600K+ a year? That's insane.

There's a real lack of compromise in the US. I don't get blaming Trump though - he's not the one killing kids. How about we rephrase this as pro-life and pro-death ?

I think the UK has a decent balance, but our law would not suit either side in the US it's binary politics there now and it will only end in more violence from both sides.

Haven't vetted this site but worth a look: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

UK 17 abortions per 1000 women
US 20.8 abortions per 1000 women
Russia 53.7 per 100 women !! wth!

 

[Ahleckz]

I listen to the pro-lifers in the US and I agree with a handful of their points but they are so blinkered in their view, there's no middle ground - much like some of the pro-abortion people. It is a minority on both sides though, but a vocal one.

I've said before I'm pro-choice but I do find it a very difficult topic to discuss. I can't help feel that both sides go too far and in some sense the pro-abortion crowd are getting a bit of blow back as abortion was meant to be rare, which it's not in the US - 600K+ a year? That's insane.

There's a real lack of compromise in the US. I don't get blaming Trump though - he's not the one killing kids. How about we rephrase this as pro-life and pro-death ?

I think the UK has a decent balance, but our law would not suit either side in the US it's binary politics there now and it will only end in more violence from both sides.

Haven't vetted this site but worth a look: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

UK 17 abortions per 1000 women
US 20.8 abortions per 1000 women
Russia 53.7 per 100 women !! wth!

Foetuses aren’t kids, and no doctors or healthcare professionals are killing kids when a woman gets an abortion.
However, kids will die if they can’t get access to safe abortion. Why don’t you care about those girls?

 

[Raumarik]

Foetuses aren’t kids, and no doctors or healthcare professionals are killing kids when a woman gets an abortion.
However, kids will die if they can’t get access to safe abortion. Why don’t you care about those girls?

At what point is the baby viable? Premature births are successfully delivered earlier every year. I disagree that all of these are foetuses and nothing else. I suggest it's up to a clinician to decide, not us or a judge.

Safe abortions should absolutely be available. Not sure where you get the idea I don't want that - please quote me in context proving otherwise.

I'm off to bed shortly so if you want an back and forth you'll need to wait until I'm online again

 

[Ahleckz]

At what point is the baby viable? Premature births are successfully delivered earlier every year. I disagree that all of these are foetuses and nothing else. I suggest it's up to a clinician to decide, not us or a judge.

Safe abortions should absolutely be available. Not sure where you get the idea I don't want that - please quote me in context proving otherwise.

I'm off to bed shortly so if you want an back and forth you'll need to wait until I'm online again

Generally before 23 weeks the foetus isn’t viable. There are now laws in place in America which ban all abortions.
I agree, it’s up to a clinician to decide. But again, judges have removed that possibility.

It was just your lack of concern for the pregnant people that die, and the fact more people die from pregnancy than from abortion it was odd you didn’t mention them in your post. You seem to care more about the foetuses than the women otherwise you would have mentioned them, no?

 

[Deleted User 234324]

According to the WHO 75% of all maternal deaths happen after child birth (from bleeding, or infection) some do occur due to an unsafe abortion but those are more likely in countries without access to medical care or limited access. I know the roe vs wade ruling has removed that blanket right for women, but in most states absolutely nothing changed.

In fact in the states which had the most vocal outcry (LA, California, Washington etc) absolutely nothing at all changed and infact in some cases they are still able to abort up to child birth, which I don't care which side your on, that is just barbaric.

 

[Rai200]

I'll call this one, there was a girl that I used to work with that didn't like using rubbers and the pill made her put weight on so she didn't use anything at all, in the 5 or so years I worked with her she had 3 that I know of, so while its a very very small pool of women globally, it does happen.

Quick question, do you think she would have made a good parent to three young children? Provided and safe and healthy upbringing?

 

[Haggisman]

The trouble is how many women are going to say I had drunken sex with a stranger and I’m now pregnant in an abortion clinic?
You honestly think they will say that?
It’s a bit like victims of domestic violence saying that they fell downstairs.

And your "solution" to this apparently common scenario is to force these women to keep these unwanted children?

Either it's nowhere near as widespread as you're trying to make out, or you're suggesting that we force tens of thousands of girls and women into single-parenthood.

countries without access to medical care or limited access

E.g. the USA

 

[Dalandius]

USA the land of the free where everyone is equal and anything is possible.

Then along comes Trump who divides the country and even tries to overthrow the goverment. Sad thing is he is still so powerful that he will get off scott free with no no consequenses.

Even if he is charged a conviction would be highly improbable because half the jury would be Republicans.

After that 2 supreme court justices who swore under oath tha Roe v Wade would stand as it is a precedent then overturn it first chance they get. Surely Biden could sack them for that, they broke a promise for that exact thing to get elected in the role in the first place.
Trump would, he was good at getting rid of unsackable people, anyone who didn't kiss his ass was chucked right out.

The job is for life only way to remove them is to impeach them and I am not sure one has ever been removed that way.

Penalties for Lying About Roe? #Shorts

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[Werewolf]

At what point is the baby viable? Premature births are successfully delivered earlier every year. I disagree that all of these are foetuses and nothing else. I suggest it's up to a clinician to decide, not us or a judge.

Safe abortions should absolutely be available. Not sure where you get the idea I don't want that - please quote me in context proving otherwise.

I'm off to bed shortly so if you want an back and forth you'll need to wait until I'm online again

Viable is still from memory at about 24 weeks, "getting earlier every year" is very highly subjective and chancy*, from memory the absolute earliest is about 22-23 weeks with massive amounts of medical support (entire teams of specialist nurses and advanced equipment) with a very low survival rate even then, IIRC they'll do everything they can in the case of complications that could be survivable if the mother wishes (and in America can afford it) to keep the foetus in the womb for every hour they can before 24 weeks because even just an extra day massively increases the chances of survival.

so yes, in theory a foetus might survive earlier today than it did 50 years ago, but not by many days and it frequently requires the sort of medical support that is rare because it requires a very well equipped, IIRC in the UK there are only a very small number of such places in hospitals, and in the US some states have basically no such facilities (oddly enough the pro life states tend to be the ones with the worst medical care for mothers to be, and babies, as can been seen from things like mortality rates that can be 10x higher that in most of Europe).


*Especially as there are a lot of variables in regards to the point at which it is viable, starting with how accurate is the actual estimate of how many days since conception, then things like general health of the mother, how well nourished the mother has been, genetics and 1001 other things.

 

[Harlequin]

According to the WHO 75% of all maternal deaths happen after child birth (from bleeding, or infection) some do occur due to an unsafe abortion but those are more likely in countries without access to medical care or limited access. I know the roe vs wade ruling has removed that blanket right for women, but in most states absolutely nothing changed.

In fact in the states which had the most vocal outcry (LA, California, Washington etc) absolutely nothing at all changed and infact in some cases they are still able to abort up to child birth, which I don't care which side your on, that is just barbaric.

In fact just 1.3% of all terminations were performed above week 24 ; https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/ss/ss7009a1.htm - a figure lower than the UK.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

And your "solution" to this apparently common scenario is to force these women to keep these unwanted children?

Either it's nowhere near as widespread as you're trying to make out, or you're suggesting that we force tens of thousands of girls and women into single-parenthood.



E.g. the USA

Planned Parenthood, one of the charities that has been targetted with vandalism and destruction by the "pro choice" lot provide free services. Obviously I know many of the lowest earners or the unemployed probably lack access to some or even any health care but for those even a papercut could be fatal. Is that a fault of the Roe vs Wade ruling, of course not. That's a fault of the US health system in general and no government Dem or Rep has bothered to rectify that issue.

Many of the business that employ low income earners also provide basic healthcare as part of employment, and many business will now cover the cost for an abortion should an employee require aid as a result of the roe vs wade ruling.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

oddly enough the pro life states tend to be the ones with the worst medical care for mothers to be, and babies, as can been seen from things like mortality rates that can be 10x higher that in most of Europe.

Maternal mortality rates for 2017 per 100,000 births considering the population size.

UAE (Pop 10m) 3
UK (Pop 67m) 7
Russia (Pop 145m) 17
US (Pop 331m) 19

So actually the US aren't that bad

 

[SkodaMart]

And your "solution" to this apparently common scenario is to force these women to keep these unwanted children?

Baby killing is wrong.
I am pro life.
There are certain situations where abortions are a valid option, such as a rape victim or a badly handicapped baby.
HOWEVER...
The last thing we need are young girls committing suicide because they are pregnant, young babies being murdered because the young mother can't cope and doesn't want anyone to know. like what happened in Catholic Ireland.
My comment referred to the many that use abortion as a last line of contraception, and many do. How reliable are the facts and statistics? Many of these young girls wont be being honest.
It's a very unpleasant complicated situation, you can't even say each case should be considered on it's own merit as many girls would die of shame rather than admit they are pregnant with an unwanted baby.

 

[Werewolf]

Maternal mortality rates for 2017 per 100,000 considering the population size.

UAE (Pop 10m) 3
UK (Pop 67m) 7
Russia (Pop 145m) 17
US (Pop 331m) 19

So actually the US aren't that bad

Is that per births?

The figures I've seen suggest the US in some states is around 20 neonatal/maternal deaths per 100k births.

[edit]
Yes, I don't know where you got your figures from but the US averages around 23 deaths per 100k live births according to the CDC*, other stats I'm finding all rate the US as basically the worst of the industrial countriees, for example NZ has a death rate of 1.7, the Netherlands and Germany have a rate of about 3, we're about 6.5 and the US is at 17 (these stats may be older than the CDC ones, as apparently the US has been getting worse).


*Which is described as “the death of a woman while pregnant or within 42 days of termination of pregnancy, irrespective of the duration and the site of the pregnancy, from any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management, but not from accidental or incidental causes”. (I suspect "termination of pregnancy" means any end to the pregnancy, from miscarriage to live birth).

 

[Deleted User 234324]

Is that per births?

Yes updated OP to reflect that, data was from 2017, data from 2019 and 2020 showed a slight increase to ~20 and ~23 respectively. The worst rates were in older women, 35+ and women all over the world, specially in the western countries are often chosing to have children much later in life.

At 40 your 10 times more likely to die during or after pregnancy, than a mother who has children that is under 25.

 

[Haggisman]

Baby killing is wrong.

Agreed, but foetus != baby.

My comment referred to the many that use abortion as a last line of contraception, and many do. How reliable are the facts and statistics? Many of these young girls wont be being honest.

Your response to stats which don't agree with your opinion is: "well people are probably lying so the stats must be wrong"?!

Who are these "many" you keep stating as fact? When's the last time you were actually in an abortion clinic? I'm guessing many times and quite recently to have such inside knowledge of the situation, how they work and the kind of people who use their services and for what reasons?