Afghanistan - 20 years on

RoboCod said:
He screwed up by taking his disagreements to social media.
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He knowingly made this very deliberate choice which, as he himself has said, he knew would result in his dismissal. He did it deliberately to be a "martyr" of sorts, to hopefully get more serving US personnel to ask for accountability from a General Staff at the pentagon who have become increasingly incompetent and politicised over the past decade (i.e. not telling the truth if it didn't match what the politicians/higher ranking Generals wanted to hear so they could keep their cushy jobs/promotions).

Almost the entire lower rank structure (O-4/5 and below - Major/Lt Colonel down to Privates) are watching their daily/weekly reports of how badly the majority of the ANA have been performing over the past decade being briefed out to the Press later as "The ANA are great!" and they know thats a lie. So now Scheller has effectively thrown himself to the Lions in an attempt to get people in the Military to question the US General Staff on how reports of so much ANA incompetence were distorted or ignored by a whole raft of Generals as they passed the reports upwards.

If the genuine truth was widely acknowledged that the majority of the ANA couldn't perform, regardless of how embarrassing it would be, I doubt we'd be in this situation now.

As an additional point - Post Vietnam the same sort of issues existed in the US military for some similar (and some not) reasons - a massive distrust/loss of confidence between the lower ranks and the General Staff - and it took a "lets step back and rebuild" process from 1976 onwards to end up 5 years later with a newly rebuilt from "top to bottom" US military, leaving it in a far better position afterwards and I wonder if we'll have to have a similar "blood letting" shake-up after this debacle.
 
ianh said:
He knowingly made this very deliberate choice which, as he himself has said, he knew would result in his dismissal. He did it deliberately to be a "martyr" of sorts, to hopefully get more serving US personnel to ask for accountability from a General Staff at the pentagon who have become increasingly incompetent and politicised over the past decade (i.e. not telling the truth if it didn't match what the politicians/higher ranking Generals wanted to hear so they could keep their cushy jobs/promotions).

Almost the entire lower rank structure (O-4/5 and below - Major/Lt Colonel down to Privates) are watching their daily/weekly reports of how badly the majority of the ANA have been performing over the past decade being briefed out to the Press later as "The ANA are great!" and they know thats a lie. So now Scheller has effectively thrown himself to the Lions in an attempt to get people in the Military to question the US General Staff on how reports of so much ANA incompetence were distorted or ignored by a whole raft of Generals as they passed the reports upwards.

If the genuine truth was widely acknowledged that the majority of the ANA couldn't perform, regardless of how embarrassing it would be, I doubt we'd be in this situation now.

As an additional point - Post Vietnam the same sort of issues existed in the US military for some similar (and some not) reasons - a massive distrust/loss of confidence between the lower ranks and the General Staff - and it took a "lets step back and rebuild" process from 1976 onwards to end up 5 years later with a newly rebuilt from "top to bottom" US military, leaving it in a far better position afterwards and I wonder if we'll have to have a similar "blood letting" shake-up after this debacle.
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Agreed however, it's a matter for the military to improve it's internal complaints procedures and upwards reporting. That's a failing in both directions, more so from above of course. I don't think being a martyr on social media will enthuse OF4/5's to go chomping at the bit demanding that responsibilities be taken. If anything, it may do the opposite since Scheller is now going to be destroyed. This is more of a public matter that world leaders, ministers and congressmen be held to account by their people. Boot neck flaying himself isn't it.
 
ianh said:
He knowingly made this very deliberate choice which, as he himself has said, he knew would result in his dismissal. He did it deliberately to be a "martyr" of sorts, to hopefully get more serving US personnel to ask for accountability from a General Staff at the pentagon who have become increasingly incompetent and politicised over the past decade (i.e. not telling the truth if it didn't match what the politicians/higher ranking Generals wanted to hear so they could keep their cushy jobs/promotions).

Almost the entire lower rank structure (O-4/5 and below - Major/Lt Colonel down to Privates) are watching their daily/weekly reports of how badly the majority of the ANA have been performing over the past decade being briefed out to the Press later as "The ANA are great!" and they know thats a lie. So now Scheller has effectively thrown himself to the Lions in an attempt to get people in the Military to question the US General Staff on how reports of so much ANA incompetence were distorted or ignored by a whole raft of Generals as they passed the reports upwards.

If the genuine truth was widely acknowledged that the majority of the ANA couldn't perform, regardless of how embarrassing it would be, I doubt we'd be in this situation now.

As an additional point - Post Vietnam the same sort of issues existed in the US military for some similar (and some not) reasons - a massive distrust/loss of confidence between the lower ranks and the General Staff - and it took a "lets step back and rebuild" process from 1976 onwards to end up 5 years later with a newly rebuilt from "top to bottom" US military, leaving it in a far better position afterwards and I wonder if we'll have to have a similar "blood letting" shake-up after this debacle.
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How has the utter uselessness of the ANA come as a surprise to so many? Even the BBC’s “Soldier, Soldier : Afghanistan” comedy drama Bluestone 42 portrayed the ANA as useless and/or corrupt.

All of the U.K. reality shows following the British Armed Forces in Afghanistan made the common soldier’s/marine’s views on the quality of the ANA very clear.
 
I think the Afghan government were still in the medieval mindset of just recruit anyone under 30 who can hold a weapon. But modern soldiers are professionals and they need to be, it isn't all about numbers anymore.
 
RoboCod said:
I don't think being a martyr on social media will enthuse OF4/5's to go chomping at the bit demanding that responsibilities be taken. If anything, it may do the opposite since Scheller is now going to be destroyed.
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It's not his post directly which he's hoping will "enthuse OF4/5's to go chomping at the bit demanding that responsibilities be taken", he's hoping that the positive public reaction to his post will make other O-4/5 and below (important point I feel) people think that also "making a stand" themselves is the now right thing to do. I'm not convinced it'll happen but whether he turns out to be right or wrong, it's now widely publicised that the trust in the US military is currently fractured between the door-kickers at the pointy end and policy makers sat in the Pentagon and that won't cure itself with an internal complaints memo or two, it needs to be public and open for trust to be regained.
 
ianh said:
He knowingly made this very deliberate choice which, as he himself has said, he knew would result in his dismissal. He did it deliberately to be a "martyr" of sorts, to hopefully get more serving US personnel to ask for accountability from a General Staff at the pentagon who have become increasingly incompetent and politicised over the past decade (i.e. not telling the truth if it didn't match what the politicians/higher ranking Generals wanted to hear so they could keep their cushy jobs/promotions).

Almost the entire lower rank structure (O-4/5 and below - Major/Lt Colonel down to Privates) are watching their daily/weekly reports of how badly the majority of the ANA have been performing over the past decade being briefed out to the Press later as "The ANA are great!" and they know thats a lie. So now Scheller has effectively thrown himself to the Lions in an attempt to get people in the Military to question the US General Staff on how reports of so much ANA incompetence were distorted or ignored by a whole raft of Generals as they passed the reports upwards.

If the genuine truth was widely acknowledged that the majority of the ANA couldn't perform, regardless of how embarrassing it would be, I doubt we'd be in this situation now.

As an additional point - Post Vietnam the same sort of issues existed in the US military for some similar (and some not) reasons - a massive distrust/loss of confidence between the lower ranks and the General Staff - and it took a "lets step back and rebuild" process from 1976 onwards to end up 5 years later with a newly rebuilt from "top to bottom" US military, leaving it in a far better position afterwards and I wonder if we'll have to have a similar "blood letting" shake-up after this debacle.
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Is anybody really shocked at how poor the ANA was?

There is a reason why Israel remains unchallenged while surrounded by those who's purpose in life is to see them destroyed, the only attacks come from the shadows.
 
Lord-Jaffa said:
Is anybody really shocked at how poor the ANA was?
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Did you not watch the past 2 months of carnage where so many US/UK politicians and high ranking Generals/Intelligence people were in the Media saying "it'll never happen" - well I think that every single one of them was either knowing lying (I would suggest the Military/Intel types were either told to or to did so prevent panic) or genuinely believed what they were being told was the absolute truth because it matched their own "perceived" ideas (the Politicians).

I know that seemingly it was only the "everyday person" with an ounce of common sense who knew it would all fall so fast but I believe that even the "everyday" person believed it would take longer to collapse than it did because, unless they were in Afghan over the past decade or so, they really didn't have an accurate understanding of just how bad large sections (but not all) of the ANA/ANP were, only a more general understanding they were generally crap.

In the end people have lied for a variety of reasons and those lies have fractured the trust that is essential to military life for a lot of US troops. The UK seemingly has gotten off a little better but those fractures are still there and will only get wider with time.
 
ianh said:
It's not his post directly which he's hoping will "enthuse OF4/5's to go chomping at the bit demanding that responsibilities be taken", he's hoping that the positive public reaction to his post will make other O-4/5 and below (important point I feel) people think that also "making a stand" themselves is the now right thing to do. I'm not convinced it'll happen but whether he turns out to be right or wrong, it's now widely publicised that the trust in the US military is currently fractured between the door-kickers at the pointy end and policy makers sat in the Pentagon and that won't cure itself with an internal complaints memo or two, it needs to be public and open for trust to be regained.
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I'm not quite sure what you're advocating here. Should lower ranks start posting on social media about their disdain about the hierarchy? You realise that anywhere you work, not just the military, you're losing your job (and probably massively cutting your desirability for future employment in the process) by doing that. I'm not talking about "an internal complaints memo or two". There are mechanisms in place to raise concern to the hierarchy. If those mechanisms are not sufficient then that is what needs addressing. Like I said though, I think it works both ways. People need the balls to speak up without fearing repercussion.
 
RoboCod said:
He screwed up by taking his disagreements to social media.
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How can he have screwed up when he knew what would happen when he told the truth?

"A US drone strike targeting a suicide bomber ended up killing 10 members of one family, including six children, surviving relatives have told the BBC."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58380791

More blood on bidens hands..if that's possible.
 
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