Afghanistan - 20 years on

cheesyboy said:
Helping stabilise Afghanistan will probably save a decent chunk of money ultimately. Fewer refugees, for example.

Cutting £20/ week from the poorest shouldn't be used as a reason to cut elsewhere. But, also, I agree we shouldn't be cutting £20 from the poorest (Tories gonna Tory, I guess)
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Giving free money to the Taliban is unlikely to save money, in my opinion. Billions of pounds has been poured into reconstruction, aside from huge military spending, and the country has reverted to the mean within weeks of the US withdrawal.

Why would it suddenly become good value now?
 
Powerful speech from Tom Tugendhat today.


Angilion said:
The ending strikes me as being somewhat similar to the French or even the British soldiers in France in 1940. Not the same, but somewhat similar. There was a lot more corruption (e.g. the ghost soldiers) and divided loyalties in Afghanistan and a fair few of the ANA did just run away, but the fight was hopeless in both cases and the Taliban are a lot worse than the regular German military in 1940. The Taliban are more like the Dirlewanger brigade was. A unit so brutal that SS members made complaints about them being excessively brutal and did so often enough for senior SS officers to raise those complaints formally. People to run away from.
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Yes, guess that's another aspect to this, that the Taliban are a seriously frightening enemy that the soldiers had good reason to believe would show them absolutely no mercy having heard stories about what happens to those they capture. Fighting against the odds against an enemy like that when already profoundly demoralised and unsupported and retreat / running away is presented as an option would be a tough sell to most people.

I was wondering if there was any comparison to be made to Dunkirk too the other day... Think there are probably enough differences that any possible comparison would be very vague, but interesting to think about. We don't criticise that army for retreating when outmaneuvered and facing a battle they couldn't win. Yes it was perhaps a more ordered retreat, but would it have been if they'd faced similar circumstances? Who knows...
 
GreatAuk said:
Powerful speech from Tom Tugendhat today.



Yes, guess that's another aspect to this, that the Taliban are a seriously frightening enemy that the soldiers had good reason to believe would show them absolutely no mercy having heard stories about what happens to those they capture. Fighting against the odds against an enemy like that when already profoundly demoralised and unsupported and retreat / running away is presented as an option would be a tough sell to most people.

I was wondering if there was any comparison to be made to Dunkirk too the other day... Think there are probably enough differences that any possible comparison would be very vague, but interesting to think about. We don't criticise that army for retreating when outmaneuvered and facing a battle they couldn't win. Yes it was perhaps a more ordered retreat, but would it have been if they'd faced similar circumstances? Who knows...
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Lol mate no comparison to Dunkirk at all and that speech in parliament talk about hamming it up British troops left in 2014.
 
cheesyboy said:
US taking a huge PR and credibility hit. Reduces their influence on the region, and perhaps world, and opens the door for Russia and China to fill the void.
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Can't see the Russians or the Chinese rushing into Afghanistan more trouble than its worth its a backwards tribal country with nothing going for it.
 
lemonkettaz said:
Commons debate starting, expecting a lot of virtue signalling, someone will cry "why can't we take 64million refugees?!".
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I know i have turned it off how about giving the British people a say whether we want to take in thousands of third world immigrants because it won't stop at a few thousand most of them coming across the channel everyday are Afghans.
 
Biden - "We did not go to Afghanistan to nation-build."

Checks official MOD website: https://www.army.mod.uk/deployments/afghanistan/

WHAT WE'RE DOING
The UK and international partners have committed significant resources in Afghanistan to help rebuild and stabilise the country.

Since the drawdown of force elements, British troops are now stationed in Kabul where they take the lead within the Kabul Security Force, a 7 nation organisation which provides vital force protection for UK and coalition advisors who are working with our Afghan partners to increase the capabilities and capacity across the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces.

Alongside military activities, the UK has supported a wide range of projects to improve education, healthcare, economic growth and local governance, in Helmand and across the country.

The UK also provides mentors who work in a training and advisory role within the Afghan National Army Officers' Academy and Infantry Branch School among other Afghan institutions.

These have been made possible by improved security provided by international troops and the Afghan National Security Forces.
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They should have told their NATO partners
 
Mr Jack said:
Yeah, it's not like that's some ultra-rare technique only taught by the US army.
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Johno please? said:
eh, thats just normal firearms safety 101, 'finger off the trigger until youre ready to shoot'

I know this and ive never had training but have fired both weapons in the picture.
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It’s the grip of the rifle and the positioning and rigidness of the trigger finger , if you had served you would know
 
woppy101 said:
It’s drilled into you over and over again when your weapon handling, ex and current forces can spot it from a mile off. but those who haven’t been through it see nothing special about it.
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I meant elaborate on why the finger position is special, not why people who have served would notice it.

How do other nations hold their weapons?
Where do they rest their trigger finger?
Do you need to hold your finger dead straight? What if there is a little curl?
Do they care what angle your finger is at relative to the barrel?

etc...

edit:

What about these guys. Picture from google says they are russian soldiers. Seems like a similar position. what are the differences that i am not noticing? Is the relaxed grip a problem in the coalition forces?
17-43-26-272212_1000x667_1024_ae6c189178526903dfa34be9778c721c.jpg
 
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Chuk_Chuk said:
I meant elaborate on why the finger position is special, not why people who have served would notice it.

How do other nations hold their weapons?
Where do they rest their trigger finger?
Do you need to hold your finger dead straight? What if there is a little curl?
Do they care what angle your finger is at relative to the barrel?

etc...
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It’s hard to explain without writing a few paragraphs, which I’m not going to do, as someone who served I can tell you those 2 were trained by Coalition forces at some point.
 
woppy101 said:
XaaEo2G.jpg
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Trigger discipline is not exclusively a western thing…

It’s exactly this kind of Western/American Pig Dog mentality and propaganda that has resulted in their defeat time and time again. Utter disregard and disrespect for the enemy, completely underestimating them.

We’ve had utter stupidity in this very thread with posters lambasting the Taliban about not being able to fly the helicopters left behind, only for them to immediately lift them and be joy riding around.
 
hurfdurf said:
Trigger discipline is not exclusively a western thing…

It’s exactly this kind of Western/American Pig Dog mentality and propaganda that has resulted in their defeat time and time again. Utter disregard and disrespect for the enemy, completely underestimating them.

We’ve had utter stupidity in this very thread with posters lambasting the Taliban about not being able to fly the helicopters left behind, only for them to immediately lift them and be joy riding around.
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I’m not saying trigger discipline is a western thing, I’m saying it’s something that has been trained into those guys over and over again, very few people that aren’t trained to handle firearms would pick up a rifle and naturally hold it like that.
 
woppy101 said:
It’s hard to explain without writing a few paragraphs, which I’m not going to do, as someone who served I can tell you those 2 were trained by Coalition forces at some point.
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Oh come on, that's a cop out. You can't tease and leave us with nothing.

Also a few paragraphs, do they give you guys a book on trigger discipline when you join the army or something? Just find the book and paste it here:p
 
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