AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[PrincessFrosty]

It's not an extension. It can be something as simple as a method (without code), proprietary algorithms for generating BVH.. or anything else, it's just like using any other API, if SAP and Oracle were to release the next ERP on .net API, neither of them would be able to reuse the others code stating that we are using the same set of APIs after all. SAP can also prohibit usage on certain kinds of hardware/os that supports .net and would require the buyer to buy special licenses for such hardware/os configs

I'm not trying to infer anyone can re-use code here. Merely that there's no vendor restrictions for using Microsoft DirectX, and DXR is part of DirectX. Nvidia cannot control who can and cannot use the DirectX API and thus the DXR instructions. They can control who can use the RTX engine that is built on top of that, but AMD will be no doubt working on their own RTX equivalent. CDPR if they want a vendor agnostic type of ray tracing can simply use DXR instructions and any video card that meets the DirectX spec will be able to use them.

The implication behind all of this is that Nvidia could if they wanted to pull the DXR rug out from under everyone, leaving AMD and other competitors screwed, and they can't. Despite having contributed to the instruction set.

 

[Wrinkly]

Is it not slightly depressing that the "best" show of RTX in a game is a game released in december 1997, or Minecraft RTX a game released for children.

Well I'm looking forward to playing Quake 2 again and will probably spend some time in Minecraft. I'm sure I read somewhere that Nvidia are planning on adding RT to a few old classics. Keeping my fingers crossed for Thief RTX.

 

[GloriousMess]

Adding my voice to the contingent of people that just don't care about ray tracing yet. I figure when the whole scene can be traced at 1080p and 60fps it'll be revolutionary, but every single example of it so far has, to me, seemed more of a gimmick. Higher refresh rates, larger resolutions at the same performance level, and heat/power/card size are so much more important than a visual effect that few people even notice, let alone enable.

 

[humbug]

Its just bizarre, its probably the biggest game of the year, and AMD not being able to run the RT in it, until sometime next year, is gona be a massive fail, theres going to be hell on.

What if when Cyberpunk comes out, their consoles already have a few RT games (as no doubt, when they launch, they'll probably launch with some RT games too), and they see/hear about it on the PC, their cards (same as in those consoles), not being able to run RT in it, until sometime next year, can only be ran on Nvidia, so unless some other PC games out with RT, that AMD can run on their cards too, everyones gona be wondering whats going on, they'll just be seeing AMDs consoles running it, and Nvidias cards on the PC running it, while their cards on the PC (that are the same as in those consoles) can't.

RDNA2 isn't even out yet... how can they implement RT for a GPU that does not exist?

 

[Nablaoperator]

Merely that there's no vendor restrictions for using Microsoft DirectX, and DXR is part of DirectX. Nvidia cannot control who can and cannot use the DirectX API and thus the DXR instructions. T

I give up..
Next time you are building a RT game just whisper DXR to your workstation and it will generate the most optimised code for you..

 

[gpuerrilla]

Is it not slightly depressing that the "best" show of RTX in a game is a game released in december 1997, or Minecraft RTX a game released for children.

Yes, that and the fact that you now need a tier 2 generation RTX card that costs >£800 to 'enjoy it'. People are quickly forgetting the Turing line-up, what about the 2060, 2070, Ti's/Supers etc. To state ahhh the RTX is really good on a high end Ampere card is pretty much cutting off 99% of the gamers out there, so pretty pathetic that the raytracing movement now has the bar required to actually use it in a decent guise.

I have a 3080 TUF OC on order that was just under £700 including VAT. Isn't the MSRP of non OC's ~ £650?

The chestnuts are forming, Jensen has succeeded. £699 and rising.

 

[Vince]

I wish they would take the path tracing implementation from Quake 2 RTX and put it on something with modern mesh support, etc. the geometry engine in Quake 2 is so limiting for showing it off.

When you actually see it in action with what the level of light transport throughout the scene brings it blows anything else away but people can't see beyond the limitations inherent to Quake 2 despite the path tracer not being tied to that.

nVidia do have a team working on bringing it to other games and engines but progress seems to be slow due to licensing, etc.

Agreed - Your average consumer just isn't going to get excited about Quake RTX, New stuff like this needs those killer apps, like Half Life Alyx for VR RTX needs it's golden moment that makes people think... "you know what I want in on that ****"

Nothing yet has made me think that. I wasn't a massive fan of quake back in the day, I mean it was an ok deathmatch game but lacked any sort of depth to it's gameplay, pick up a railgun shoot 1000 people, rinse and repeat, I do however remember picking up a Power VR card (I think it was a Kyro/Kyro2) back in the day to play it... looked good back then. I can't imagine picking it up again today though.

You know what would be better - TA (Total Annihilation & Core Contingency) or Age of empires remake with some stunning visuals, or even a remake of something with actual depth... Something like Half Life - RTX that - Get them to make that! Id buy that

 

[DDH]

It's not an extension. It can be something as simple as a method (without code), proprietary algorithms for generating BVH.. or anything else, it's just like using any other API, if SAP and Oracle were to release the next ERP on .net API, neither of them would be able to reuse the others code stating that we are using the same set of APIs after all. SAP can also prohibit usage on certain kinds of hardware/os that supports .net and would require the buyer to buy special licenses for such hardware/os configs

It is an extension, and extension of DX12. Otherwise it would have been a feature of a new DX version.

When a game developer wants to implement DX12, they obtain a licence to do so and if they require DXR that is included. With it comes resources and technical support from MS.

DXR is a standard for RT that any hardware vendor can design hardware around to accelerate. Intel will support DXR with their discrete GPUs at some point.

The hardware implementations differ between hardware vendors, but the game engine doesn't need to know anything about that, just that the Dev wants a a scene ray traced. The driver is responsible for taking the 3d API code and running it on the hardware.

Anyone can attempt to develope a new standard for a 3d API that includes RT, but why would you. MS which has the biggest marketshare of desktop OS, has a console ecosystem and a robust and proven 3d API that is supported on both that now includes a RT extension.

 

[Nablaoperator]

It is an extension, and extension of DX12. Otherwise it would have been a feature of a new DX version.

I am not talking about DXR being not an extension..
I am talking about proprietary code or methods that Nvidia build on DXR as not being extensions.. it's nvidia's IP that's fully compliant to DXR and Nvidia can wish to license that as they wish without violating any legal obligations that APIs may or may not carry..
I believe I am just debating with myself here now

 

[DDH]

I give up..
Next time you are building a RT game just whisper DXR to your workstation and it will generate the most optimised code for you..

It's been explained clearly for a few pages right now. It honestly feels like you have your hill and everyone else be damned.

When a dev develops a game engine and implements direct X API, there are specific rules they need to follow. They can't just type what ever they feel like in that moment. These rules are inherent to the API itself. These rules are vendor agnostic and are made available to anyone who wants to implement a hardware based solution for accelerating that code.

What should also be mentioned here is that DXR could be run without DXR hardware acceleration, on any CPU. But with out acceleration it would be stupidly slow and hence is not done.

 

[Wrinkly]

There are none that i can see under £700, i'm talking about £400 GPU's, that's midrange.

Must be the pirce of Haribo rocketing again.

 

[DDH]

I am not talking about DXR being not an extension..
I am talking about proprietary code or methods that Nvidia build on DXR as not being extensions.. it's nvidia's IP that's fully compliant to DXR and Nvidia can wish to license that as they wish without violating any legal obligations that APIs may or may not carry..
I believe I am just debating with myself here now

To do what purpose though? It would add overhead and honestly i think youre actually talking about the driver stack. NVIDIA driver does exactly what you are referring to here. It takes the DXR code and submits it to the hardware in a way that is both efficient and the hardware understands

AMD will have to do the same. The only way that CP2077 doesn't run RT on RDNA2 is if AMDs driver does not yet support it

 

[Wrinkly]

Yes, that and the fact that you now need a tier 2 generation RTX card that costs >£800 to 'enjoy it'. People are quickly forgetting the Turing line-up, what about the 2060, 2070, Ti's/Supers etc. To state ahhh the RTX is really good on a high end Ampere card is pretty much cutting off 99% of the gamers out there, so pretty pathetic that the raytracing movement now has the bar required to actually use it in a decent guise.



The chestnuts are forming, Jensen has succeeded. £699 and rising.

If the 3080 is showing decent performance at 1440p, I'm sure the 3070 will be fine for 1080p. Turing was really just a beta product. I stuck with my 1080Ti after watching Turing's launch. I've been waiting 2years for playable RT

 

[Nablaoperator]

When a dev develops a game engine and implements direct X API, there are specific rules they need to follow.

A code is a combination of API calls.. what combination is the most optimal isn't known at the onset.. most players would rely on third party experts and licence their specific combination of API calls and data structures (nvidias code).. licensing terms will naturally follow..

Also I have suggested that AMD might have requested CDPR to hold off till they revert with the most optimised combination of API calls and data structures (AMDs code) for ensuring best performance on Navi even if Nvidia has open sourced it's code..

Or AMD will take some time to support DXR in drivers post launch

This is a speculation regarding the specific cause of speculated delayed support for CP RT on Navi.

I am reiterating my position for your benefit

 

[montymint]

1440 UW is the way forward - Good mix of high res and nice field of view... Just shockingly supported in most games. 1440 UW 100-144hz... job done, you dont need more than that.

I've loved my panel since I got it 4 years ago. I do need to upgrade it to get the refresh rate up from 75hz.

First I want a card that maxes this out

 

[LoadsaMoney]

RDNA2 isn't even out yet... how can they implement RT for a GPU that does not exist?

As its in the consoles, and as i said, if they are going to launch their cards before the consoles, then it will exist, if they don't launch before the consoles, when the consoles do come out, its still going to exist, being the same RDNA2, so there will be hell on, when those RDNA2 consoles, are running RT games, while their RDNA2 cards, ain't.

They will only see RDNA2 cards running RT, like they can on the consoles, and Nvidias cards, when a RT game comes out on the PC, that they can actually run on them, if Cyberpunk is the first RT game to appear on PC, after RDNA2 cards launch, and the new consoles launch, hell on, if they can't run the RT, as everyone will only see the RDNA2 consoles running RT games, and Nvidia cards running RT games, while the RDNA2 cards can't

 

[Wrinkly]

Bigger pannel? Arent UW coming up in 30+ inches? Mine is 34 and I was thinking any bogger might be a stretch - Until I saw the 40 odd inch UW.

I've not noticed 40" UW. That maybe okay for me.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Im not really sold on the monitors that big rn. I would more likely pickup a TV that can act as a monitor if going above my current 28" if they can offer the bells for a cheaper price.

 

[DDH]

A code is a combination of API calls.. what combination is the most optimal isn't known at the onset.. most players would rely on third party experts and licence their specific combination of API calls and data structures (nvidias code).. licensing terms will naturally follow..

Also I have suggested that AMD might have requested CDPR to hold off till they revert with the most optimised combination of API calls and data structures (AMDs code) for ensuring best performance on Navi even if Nvidia has open sourced it's code..

Or AMD will take some time to support DXR in drivers post launch

This is a speculation regarding the specific cause of speculated delayed support for CP RT on Navi.

I am reiterating my position for your benefit

The syntax of the code follows rules. These rules and know and published. The developer has options with regard to do how serial or parallel the game engine will manage its 3d API calls. It's possible a serial approach will benefit NVIDIA, whereas a more parallel approach is favorable to AMD, based on their differing hardware implementations. This was speculated by nerdtechgasm in his rdna2 video about the XBSX hot chips presentation.


CDProjektRed wouldn't have to hold off anything, their code is vendor agnostic as mentioned before. If AMD doesn't want to support RT on CP2077 they won't through their driver stack

 

[OMGsideboob]

Adding my voice to the contingent of people that just don't care about ray tracing yet. I figure when the whole scene can be traced at 1080p and 60fps it'll be revolutionary, but every single example of it so far has, to me, seemed more of a gimmick. Higher refresh rates, larger resolutions at the same performance level, and heat/power/card size are so much more important than a visual effect that few people even notice, let alone enable.

I have to agree with you on that. I'm unable to differentiate between RT and non-RT in a blind test. I've tried to focus and concentrate on the visual effects of different in-game scenes and I can't tell when RT is active. In some blind tests, I actually preferred the appearance of non-RT segments. Am I alone in being unable to actually notice RT?

As far as I'm concenered it's a gimmick but I can't understand how or why so many regard it to be important, especially when you consider the tiny range of games that currently support it. I'm convinced I must be missing something...perhaps something like a few hundred games that secretly support RT that I have no idea about!

I'd be more than glad if biggest Navi has absolutely no ray tracing capabilites at all.