AMD Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000) - *** NO COMPETITOR HINTING ***

[0h_no_not_again]

PCIe x16 slot and primary M.2 have pretty direct connection to CPU, and there
Capability is about how well board has been designed and length of wiring.
Longer distance needs better quality, shorter distance doesn't necessarily need that.

And board makers tested PCIe v4.0 months ago successfully at least in better mobos.

But after speaking with several motherboard vendors here at CES 2019, we've learned that many of them have successfully tested PCIe 4.0 on 300- and 400-series AMD motherboards...
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-pcie-4.0-motherboard,38401.html​

Tested does not mean validated. The AMD reps quoted in the Toms article have no idea what they're talking about.
Part of the qualification is proof by design, and by definition no PCIe 3.0 mobo is going to meet the 4.0 design requirements.

This stuff is way way waayyy more complex than average joe realises.

 

[4K8KW10]

Tested does not mean validated. The AMD reps quoted in the Toms article have no idea what they're talking about.
Part of the qualification is proof by design, and by definition no PCIe 3.0 mobo is going to meet the 4.0 design requirements.

This stuff is way way waayyy more complex than average joe realises.

The slot needs to be very close to the CPU, if not mistaken only 7cm before it needs repeaters... No chance whatsoever for the old mobos.

 

[Journey]

The slot needs to be very close to the CPU, if not mistaken only 7cm before it needs repeaters... No chance whatsoever for the old mobos.

Jesus you talk some utter rubbish, you do realise that the slot location is based on the ATX/ITX/M-ATX specification, nothing to do with the routing of the PCI-E from the CPU socket which is in the exact same place as it always has been and always will be for the life of the AM4 socket.

As for PCI-E 4.0 support, some boards may have been designed with it in mind in 2017 since the spec was there, the just weren't qualified for it as there was no CPU at the time, it happened with PCI-E 2.0 to 3.0.

 

[The Old School Gamer]

Pre-X570 boards will not support PCIe Gen 4.

There’s no guarantee that older motherboards can reliably run the more stringent signaling requirements of Gen4, and we simply cannot have a mix of “yes, no, maybe” in the market for all the older motherboards. The potential for confusion is too high.

When FINAL BIOSes are released for 3rd Gen Ryzen (AGESA 1000+), Gen4 will not be an option anymore. We wish we could’ve enabled this backwards, but the risk is too great.”

– Robert Hallock, Senior Technical Marketing Manager at AMD

ASUS pulled their Ryzen gen3 7002 X370 BIOS download shortly after this statement.
But I had already flashed it, so it will be interesting to see what happens when I drop that 12 core in next month.

 

[Jokester]

A lot of previous boards have the top x16 slot further away - there was usually a x1 slot at the top in many boards.

 

[michty_me]

Not sure which boards to even start looking at.
I just hope the better ones aren't manufactured by Asus as the past few items I've had of theirs required customer support assistance which was a pretty horrific experience.

 

[Journey]

A lot of previous boards have the top x16 slot further away - there was usually a x1 slot at the top in many boards.

And most of the new boards have an M.2 slot in that space now, very few take advantage of the slot located as close to the I/O shield, other than ITX boards or M-ATX in some instances.

 

[Jokester]

And most of the new boards have an M.2 slot in that space now, very few take advantage of the slot located as close to the I/O shield, other than ITX boards or M-ATX in some instances.

And the new boards are designed to support PCI-E 4!

 

[FoxEye]

At least on AM4 even if you go 6c now you know 16c will be an option years down the line.

But then you're delving into the 2nd hand market. Which if I'm reading it right is @Journey 's suggested strategy also.

I think bringing the 2nd hand market into this is fine, but it's not going to appeal to everyone.

I can count on possibly one finger the number of times I've swapped my CPU without also changing the RAM, mobo. And I 99% buy my equipment new vs 2nd hand.

Whilst I've had some good 2nd hand experiences I've also had some bad ones where I lost money.

 

[Journey]

And the new boards are designed to support PCI-E 4!

Yep, and most of the boards still don't have the first 16x slot right near the I/O, it is amazing what 15.88mm can make huh.

 

[Zenduri]

I think I've mentioned this to you before, get an X56** in there.

Someone mentioned int he other thread they've seen them for £9 on Ebay, so cheap as...chips.

There is no modern multicore game that even comes close to maxing mine, and I run at 1440P UW.

The most I've seen is AC Origins at about 60%+- across all 12 threads, and I think a good chunk of that is down to the Denuvo DRM.

I'm GPU locked in each and every one of them.

Which is why even though I'd like a new shiny 3*** system, I'm going to wait for Zen 3.

If you have seen my response im 80% sure i have a Ram slot thats dying with the mobo on the way out so just going to wait it out for Ryzen 3k. If it wasnt dying i would have looked out for a 56**

 

[Journey]

But then you're delving into the 2nd hand market. Which if I'm reading it right is @Journey 's suggested strategy also.

I think bringing the 2nd hand market into this is fine, but it's not going to appeal to everyone.

I can count on possibly one finger the number of times I've swapped my CPU without also changing the RAM, mobo. And I 99% buy my equipment new vs 2nd hand.

Whilst I've had some good 2nd hand experiences I've also had some bad ones where I lost money.

So if doesn't apply to you personally then, and you'll 'have to' spend £700+ but anyone else who doesn't fear buying a second hand CPU (the most reliable part of a computer) can happily take advantage of the cost savings and still get the performance and longevity, I quoted you again below for clarity where you stated the majority will need to spend £700.

e: For the majority of those that upgrade infrequently, a Ryzen CPU + motherboard alone is likely to cost £550.

Just for those two components.

OK add RAM that's another £150 minimum.

So £700 for a Ryzen 3000 upgrade.

 

[FoxEye]

So if doesn't apply to you personally then, and you'll 'have to' spend £700+ but anyone else who doesn't fear buying a second hand CPU (the most reliable part of a computer) can happily take advantage of the cost savings and still get the performance and longevity, I quoted you again below for clarity where you stated the majority will need to spend £700.

Yeah OK so to clarify you don't think spending £700 is necessary - but that's because you're using the 2nd hand market to reduce costs.

Just so we're all clear.

e: OK if you're advocating buying a 6c 3600 + older gen mobo, then 2nd hand upgrade to 8c (3700) years later, why not just go for a 2600(X) instead?

If the way to beat the system is to buy something that's old and cheap, then why bother with Ryzen 3000 at all?

So perhaps the best Ryzen 3000 upgrade is a 2600X ?! Hmmm!

 

[Journey]

Yeah OK so to clarify you don't think spending £700 is necessary - but that's because you're using the 2nd hand market to reduce costs.

Just so we're all clear.

No, you said people who upgrade infrequently would have to spend £700, but they don't the could get a 3600/16GB/X570 for ~£400, or 3700X/16GB/X570 for ~£530, or many other options, there is nothing forcing you to over spend on a motherboard and hyped up branded RAM that offers a few % points for 100+% increase in cost.

So, now we are all clear, you made up a price that you wanted to and ran with it.

 

[FoxEye]

No, you said people who upgrade infrequently would have to spend £700, but they don't the could get a 3600/16GB/X570 for ~£400, or 3700X/16GB/X570 for ~£530, or many other options, there is nothing forcing you to over spend on a motherboard and hyped up branded RAM that offers a few % points for 100+% increase in cost.

So, now we are all clear, you made up a price that you wanted to and ran with it.

We're going in circles here; you already agreed that a 6c would potentially need upgrading again in a couple years.

e: Just to be clear you're now saying that B-die RAM is a gimmick and that AMD systems do not get a noticeable boost in FPS from quality, branded RAM.... so you're quoting £60 ish for cheap-ass RAM.

OK.

 

[Journey]

We're going in circles here; you already agreed that a 6c would potentially need upgrading again in a couple years.

Seriously? I just gave two examples one with a 6c and one with an 8c both using X570 and costing less than £700 you stated... you can see where it says X570 in all my posts not X470 right? Not once did I say use an older board at all whatsoever.

So please explain:

e: OK if you're advocating buying a 6c 3600 + older gen mobo, then 2nd hand upgrade to 8c (3700) years later, why not just go for a 2600(X) instead?

 

[4K8KW10]

And the new boards are designed to support PCI-E 4!

Yes

The PCI SIG is about to double the data rate of its interconnect in just two years. Source: PCI SIG.
Arnaud Schleich thinks that the situation is even worse. PCIe 4.0 signals are only travelling three to five inches, said the CEO of PLDA Inc., a designer of PCIe controller cores that came out with 4.0 products three years ago.

“We cannot use FR4. We needed to move to Megtron-6; that’s really clear to me. If you want to get more distance, you need to use retimers, and that’s a bit expensive and tricky.”

“What we have been using for 4.0 and expect to use for 5.0 is twinax cables and firefly connectors,” he added. “The cost is very low compared to retimers, you can get whatever you want in distance, and the latency is really good.”

Indeed, Krause noted that “there’s been a lot of interest in using cables … for every inch on a board, you can go 10 inches on cables for the same power and loss budget, but cables have costs in being routed and connected.”
https://www.eetasia.com/news/article/18061502-pcie-45-higher-bandwidth-but-at-what-cost

 

[Journey]

We're going in circles here; you already agreed that a 6c would potentially need upgrading again in a couple years.

e: Just to be clear you're now saying that B-die RAM is a gimmick and that AMD systems do not get a noticeable boost in FPS from quality, branded RAM.... so you're quoting £60 ish for cheap-ass RAM.

OK.

I'd call Crucial Ballistix C15 (Micron E-Die) which currently holds the world record for DDR4 speed is not quality then? It also works just as well as B-Die Samsung on Ryen 2xxx boards, and given that we are talking 3xxx based IMC's prety sure you'll be impressed by the speed it will be hitting. Yes, you can get 16GB E-die for ~ £65-70

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

£150+ for B-die RAM?? My 3200MHZ C16 B-die 16GB set cost me £129 last year from OcUK when RAM prices were still high. You can get 8Pack 3200MHZ and 3600MHZ 16GB B-die sets for £150 and under from OcUK right now.

This is the set I got:

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...-3200mhz-dual-channel-kit-blac-my-0a2-tg.html

Its £99 now and it has a good chance of being Samsung B-die and even if it isn't will have one of the better alternatives.

People are on purpose jacking up the price of the Ryzen 3000 systems now - first you "need" £150+ RAM and you "need" X570 boards over £150.

I would say the 3600/3600X/3700X will probably all be fine on a board under £150 with normal 3200MHZ DDR4. People forget the max official rated memory speed is now upto 3200MHZ with Ryzen 3000.They are only 65W~95W TDP CPUs FFS,and the new Ryzen CPUs have a ton of onboard cache even in their 6 core and 8 core versions.

 

[morguk]

I consider the Gigabyte B450 Aorus Pro the best in its tier.

MSI B450 Carbon Gaming Pro has better cooling and VRM.