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*** AMD "Zen 4" thread (inc AM5/APU discussion) ***

Armageus said:
Why? For 90% of the PC market (i.e. excluding gamers, and "professionals" with specific software/hardware needs) even 4 cores is enough (e.g. for web browsing / facebook / youtube etc)

Better to further improve IPC and other aspects of the chip iteratively, and then gradually increase core counts over generations. It wasn't long ago that "make moar corez" was meme worthy
Click to expand...

We have ever growing CPU power demands from 4K and soon 8K. These 4-core chips are already struggling and if we are limiting to only 4 cores, we will never see significant technological leaps to better user experiences.

Casual gamers are also a large part of the market.
That is the market segment that plays mostly outdated titles...
But they won't forever stay playing only those.


This is my load running a 4K YouTube video:



I don't think it is normal.
 
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4K8KW10 said:
We have ever growing CPU power demands from 4K and soon 8K. These 4-core chips are already struggling and if we are limiting to only 4 cores, we will never see significant technological leaps to better user experiences.

Casual gamers are also a large part of the market.
That is the market segment that plays mostly outdated titles...
But they won't forever stay playing only those.


This is my load running a 4K YouTube video:



I don't think it is normal.
Click to expand...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rPB4A3zDnQ

T4nigl8.png

qrg2k99.png
 
4K8KW10 said:
Use the Intel die shots, this above doesn't provide much information on the parts because there are grey zones with unknown functions.

AMD has to offer chiplets with more cores, that is how the die shrinks has always worked, look at the graphics cards, each generation gets double the shaders count.

Going from N7 to N5 is exactly this. Make the chiplet with more cores and give the low-end more cores - we need to go up from the primitive 4-core configurations.
Click to expand...

Why would Intel die shots be relevant to AMD processor design?

There only appears to be a handful (3?) of 4-core processors in AMDs lineup, right at the lower end of both mobile and APUs, none of which use chiplets?

4K8KW10 said:
We have ever growing CPU power demands from 4K and soon 8K. These 4-core chips are already struggling and if we are limiting to only 4 cores, we will never see significant technological leaps to better user experiences.

Casual gamers are also a large part of the market.
That is the market segment that plays mostly outdated titles...
But they won't forever stay playing only those.


This is my load running a 4K YouTube video:



I don't think it is normal.
Click to expand...

So a 4 year old, 'middle of the road', mobile processor running a Zen2 on 14nm is comparable to Zen4 how? Even in the current lineup which is basically 2 generations before Zen4 (looking at Zen3 with the extra cache before then) the comparable chip would seem to be the Ryzen 5 5500U, still Zen2 but 7nm and 6 cores with a very slight clock speed bump.

Still not going to be great for 8K although 4K should be fine, and those are systems at the lower end of the spectrum, anything H-series mobile or desktop would be much better suited for it and easily available.
 
SKILL said:
So a 4 year old, 'middle of the road', mobile processor running a Zen2 on 14nm is comparable to Zen4 how?
Click to expand...

Most people don't have even that.
And you are claiming that progress is not needed or that slow progress with offering of no more cores is best.
 
4K8KW10 said:
This is my load running a 4K YouTube video:



I don't think it is normal.
Click to expand...


You are right - that isn't normal - it looks like something is not working properly on your system with regards to VP9 hardware acceleration.
My 7700K with "very slow iGPU" manages to stay under 10% usage on that 4K video.

I tried the 8K video @humbug demonstrated hits ~85% cpu usage but the bigger problem is my internet connection can't keep up :D

By the time 8K becomes widespread hardware acceleration of av01 will be a thing and CPU usage will be negligible (and certainly won't need "moar corez", but instead will benefit from integrated graphics and the offloading of video decoding done by them.)

4K Video mentioned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1QICrgxTjA
8K Video mentioned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rPB4A3zDnQ
 
4K8KW10 said:
Most people don't have even that.
And you are claiming that progress is not needed or that slow progress with offering of no more cores is best.
Click to expand...

You're claiming that the Zen4 chiplets need more cores, using the argument that a 4-core Zen2 mobile chip, which doesn't use chiplets, needs more cores.

A comparison of the SKU lineup shows that what was a 4-core is now a 6-core, progress! 50% moar cores without needing a change in chiplet size or even waiting for Zen4.

By the time Zen4 comes out that same level of processor you're complaining about is likely to be at least 6-core Zen3 showing yet another step in performance of about 15% over the current generation.
 
There is a large enough group of people who DON'T need the crappy integrated graphics. Period.

If AMD was good, it could have just shrunk the already 8-core Cezanne to N5 process and offer it to the masses, while leaving the original chiplets offers to the high-end market segment that doesn't need the crappy integrated graphics!

Offer more cores to the same group of people who obviously need more cores.
 
4K8KW10 said:
There is a large enough group of people who DON'T need the crappy integrated graphics. Period.

If AMD was good, it could have just shrunk the already 8-core Cezanne to N5 process and offer it to the masses, while leaving the original chiplets offers to the high-end market segment that doesn't need the crappy integrated graphics!

Offer more cores to the same group of people who obviously need more cores.
Click to expand...

Monolithic APUs like Cezanne exist because there is a demand for them, but they cost a fair amount of money to make each new design, even 'just shrinking' Cezanne requires a non-zero effort.

A small RDNA2 setup added to the IO Die sure adds a tiny tiny amount to the cost per IO die, but saves a whole lot of engineering in terms of APU design.

What group needs new cores? You repeatedly state that chiplets need more cores but show a mobile CPU that's already been bumped to 6-core as your argument. What chiplet based processor/consumer needs more cores? Is it the guy that bought a 5800X rather than 5900X, or 5950X rather than Threadripper. Where's the gap between 6-96 cores that needs filling?
 
Armageus said:
And as the I/O die has been up until now fabbed on an older and cheaper process node, doesn't affect production capacity for chiplets in any way.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and with/for DDR5 they will need to design a 'new' IO die anyway, I also assume it will move onto 7nm at the same time given the chiplets will have moved onto 5nm by then.
 
8k playback on the good old 3900X / X370 / 3070 (GPU load was up and down between 20% to 45%). :)

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