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AMD Zen 5 rumours

Freddie1980 said:
Disappointing if true, Zen3 was a 19% IPC uplift on the same process node but now there struggling to break 10% using a new faster process meaning the actual gains from a better design are likely in the single figgers.
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Jim Keller designed the first few Zen architectures. He's now long gone, I believe it's been written that Zen 5 is the first architecture that he didn't contribute to. This would make sense if it's a smaller IPC bump. Lesser minds perhaps just doubling up on cores with no/little innovation.

I just hope Zen can retain it's power efficiency with the doubling of cores and other changes. If they could improve on idle power consumption (the only metric that Intel currently beat Zen4 in) that would be awesome too.
 
Idle power use is way down the list of core characteristics. I’d place idle power use just above CPU taste in my list of important features.
 
Dave2150 said:
Jim Keller designed the first few Zen architectures. He's now long gone, I believe it's been written that Zen 5 is the first architecture that he didn't contribute to. This would make sense if it's a smaller IPC bump. Lesser minds perhaps just doubling up on cores with no/little innovation.

I just hope Zen can retain it's power efficiency with the doubling of cores and other changes. If they could improve on idle power consumption (the only metric that Intel currently beat Zen4 in) that would be awesome too.
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Jim Keller was one of thousands of people that built Zen. Yes he might have been the lead, but its not like one person does everything. Jim is great, but he's not a god.
 
Klo said:
Jim Keller was one of thousands of people that built Zen. Yes he might have been the lead, but its not like one person does everything. Jim is great, but he's not a god.
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Companies pay him extremely lucrative salaries, as wherever he goes, brilliance follows. AMD K8, Apple A4, A5, Zen. He is practically a god in his field.
 
Very signficant, if true:
"Perhaps the biggest announcement is that AMD has increased the maximum cores per CCX from 8 to 16".

There's a good reason for gamers to buy >8 CPU cores, as there won't be a latency penalty, performance should scale much more uniformly.

They need this to compete with Intel well, imo.

It's one of the things I considered as essential to improve on Zen 4. Essential for their sales + profits to increase also, so I'm sure this is something they are likely to want for Zen5.

Also, if the rumoured 16 core CCX is not used in desktop CPUs, then it's a huge waste of the design.

But MLID leak, so who knows. Trust, but verify*.

* Except for Russia's government, they can go to hell
 
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g67575 said:
Very signficant, if true:
"Perhaps the biggest announcement is that AMD has increased the maximum cores per CCX from 8 to 16".

There's a good reason for gamers to buy >8 CPU cores, as there won't be a latency penalty, performance should scale much more uniformly.

They need this to compete with Intel well, imo.

It's one of the things I considered as essential to improve on Zen 4. Essential for their sales + profits to increase also, so I'm sure this is something they are likely to want for Zen5.

Also, if the rumoured 16 core CCX is not used in desktop CPUs, then it's a huge waste of the design.

But MLID leak, so who knows. Trust, but verify*.

* Except for Russia's government, they can go to hell
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According to MLID AMD has the 16 core ccx working but they may not use it. He gives a variety of options but the 8950x could still be 8+8 or it could be 16 or it could be 16+8 or 16+16. Basically he has no idea how many cores Zen5 desktop will have so he throws out every possible combo he can guess and then later he'll make a video saying "look guys I was right!"
 
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Grim5 said:
According to MLID AMD has the 16 core ccx working but they may not use it.
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He hasn't got a clue then. Pure speculation for the rumour mill.

An expensive waste of the new CCX design, if it is not used in their mainstream products, which would benefit from the latency improvement.

I think it will be upto 16 large cores at least (for 1 CCX).

If they are going to need a smaller CCX (for products with less than 16 cores, e.g. 8 cores) and a larger CCX, it would seem logical to combine them for desktop CPUs with over 16 cores.

So, I think a 24 core CPU would make a lot of sense (at least, purely for multithreaded performance), with no big.LITTLE design on desktop, as the design just isn't worth it on desktops.

Looking ahead though, I think the rumours about scaling up the number of cores per CCX make a lot of sense, perhaps even beyond 16 at some point.
 
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Think I'll wait for next AMD release then go for a 7900X3d

Would it be worthwhile getting a few quid into a good 670X mobo and RAM with a stop gap like the 7600, until the next round of CPU's come out? Basically dump a few quid int to the mobo/ram and upgrade the 7600 later to a proper CPU?
 
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Pretty sure the 16c CCX will be for Zen 5c rather than Zen 5. A 16c CCX would be good for higher end parts but that is a lot of silicon to waste to make an 8c or even a 6c variant and they are still going to exist.

I expect Zen 5 to be a 8c + 8c config at the top initially. If AMD feels the need in the future because of competition then I would not at all be surprised to see a 8c + 16c config get released, I expect they have prototypes in house and the question is more around is there a market, what would we charge, what are the drawbacks etc.

As for the IPC. I remember the initial Zen 4 slide vs what was launched. AMD tend to sandbag pretty hard with Zen performance numbers, if only the Radeon team did the same...
 
I see no on reason why more than 16 cores couldn't be achieved on a single CCX, especially as transistor density increases even further, beyond 5nm. I wonder to what extent will EUV be used with the next fabrication process?

Maybe create a 24 CCX chip for desktops, and a 32 CCX chip for Zen 'C' products.
 
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g67575 said:
I see no on reason why more than 16 cores couldn't be achieved on a single CCX, especially as transistor density increases even further, beyond 5nm. I wonder to what extent will EUV be used with the next fabrication process?

Maye create a 24 CCX chip for desktops, and a 32 CCX chip Zen 'C' products.
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That works only if you take the same chip and put it in a smaller process, which is not what happens between gens.
Most of the shrinking is invested in adding logic, which is what gives the IPC gains.
 
Fitting the cores on a single die is a non-issue, you could probably do 64+ if you wanted to, just look at the size of GPU dies! The issue is the bus connecting those cores, this is why Zen2 was 2x 4-core 'complexes' and why Intel keep releasing chips with 8 P-cores, even putting 10 cores was/is doable for them but increased the power consumption off the bus itself to unreasonable levels.

On that note has anyone seen a detailed look at the 16-core Zen4c modules? Are they organised as one block of 16 or 2x8 or similar and/or what is their inter-core latency like?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see Zen5 stick to 8-core dies, if they need more cores with Ryzen it's far far easier to just have 3 dies for upto 24 cores, but then even that would be encroaching into the HEDT they occasionally pretend to still cover with Threadripper.
 
Maybe.

I think it would be a mistake though to use 8 core CCXs, except for the 8 core model. Reviewers weren't impressed with the latency penalty, which often handed the performance /framerate advantage to CPUs like the 7700X, rather than the premium 16 core 7950X.

This latency deficiency affects the v-cache models also...These are already quite niche products, aimed almost solely at gamers, and partly an attempt to decrown Intel CPUs in this area. This has made CPUs like the 7950X3D seem an even more niche product, when the 7800X3D comes out ahead in many games in terms of average and minimum framerate.

People will wait for the 8 core V-cache Zen 5 CPU (not hard to see why the Zen 4 vcache CPU came after the 16 core...), is there's any doubt that the 16 core Zen5 equivalent won't give an advantage.
 
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