Any religious people watch the Wonders of Life last night?

How do you know it was an Apple?

:)

We did plenty of research, found several accounts of the same event, experimented with different possibilities ... we cannot only said it was an "Apple", but we are convinced it came from Kent, let's start selling relics!

Now, ringo, given that you keep on asking the same question over and over, let me ask some: how old do you think the Earth is? And the universe? Do you believe there are billions upon billions of galaxies? Do you believe humans have been walking the planet for the last 200.000 years?
 
Some significant changes can occur from a single mutation, e.g. CCR5 delta 32 is a single mutation that confers resistance or immunity to a variety of viruses. A single mutation in the MSTN gene causes a very large increase in muscularity. There are many possible major changes from single mutations.

Even if lots of related mutations are required and the probability is very small, that just means it would take more generations.

The problem I see is that most mutations cause loss of genetic information. I've no idea how new functionality can result when more genetic information is lost with each mutation.

Why would it? If it has no effect then there's no evolutionary pressure either way.

Why would it be preserved as opposed to being discarded/lost?

I've no idea. Why does it matter?

Well, it seems obvious. If there were to be far more harmful mutations it doesn't help the chances of survival surely.
 
The word I was lacking was unique, I haven't had my coffee. There's no need for uniqueness in evolution though, mutations can occur independently in different populations of the same creature.

There are some fascinating creatures which evolved in isolation to fill niches of other animals elsewhere had, and look really quite similar despite not being of the same genus. I'll dig some examples up if I get time, there is a hedgehog-alike that's pretty amazing
 
The problem I see is that most mutations cause loss of genetic information. I've no idea how new functionality can result when more genetic information is lost with each mutation.

Well, it seems obvious. If there were to be far more harmful mutations it doesn't help the chances of survival surely.

Where do you get your information from that "Most" mutations cause loss of information? Mutations can, and do add information, we are 98% ape and 2% human (give or take, I've not checked the precise numbers)yet that 2% is responsible for all the variations in humans we see today. So tiny addition can cause huge changes. Also you don't necessarily need to add information. Think of it as a book with a million words. That Book can be the Bible or say Alice in Wonderland. The same number, with the same letters just reordered.

Also many harmful mutations are repaired before they have effect
 
Also many harmful mutations are repaired before they have effect
Evolution should have plenty of evidence if this is correct?, can you show how mutations improved upon the species and above the species, if this actually is one of the mechanisms that a species evolved into another completely different species?.
 
The problem I see is that most mutations cause loss of genetic information. I've no idea how new functionality can result when more genetic information is lost with each mutation.

This was covered ringo about 10 pages ago (Jason2 tried to pull the same silly argument). I'm sure you were about at that point so maybe you missed it but on the evidence so far it just seems like you are willfully ignoring the explanations for these things.

Maybe stay more on talkorigins and less on answersingenesis.

Evolution myths: Mutations can only destroy information

Biologists are uncovering thousands of examples of how mutations lead to new traits and even new species. This claim not only flies in the face of the evidence, it is also a logical impossibility

Most people lose the ability to digest milk by their teens. A few thousand years ago, however, after the domestication of cattle, several groups of people in Europe and Africa independently acquired mutations that allow them to continue digesting milk into adulthood. Genetic studies show there has been very strong selection for these mutations, so they were clearly very beneficial.

Most biologists would see this as a gain in information: a change in environment (the availability of cow's milk as food) is reflected by a genetic mutation that lets people exploit that change (gaining the ability to digest milk as an adult). Creationists, however, dismiss this as a malfunction, as the loss of the ability to switch off the production of the milk-digesting enzyme after childhood.

Rather than get bogged down trying to define what information is, let's just look at a few other discoveries made by biologists in recent years. For instance, it has been shown a simple change in gene activity in sea squirts can turn their one-chambered heart into a working two-chambered one. Surely this counts as increasing information?

TRIMming the genome

Some monkeys have a mutation in a protein called TRIM5 that results in a piece of another, defunct protein being tacked onto TRIM5. The result is a hybrid protein called TRIM5-CypA, which can protect cells from infection with retroviruses such as HIV. Here, a single mutation has resulted in a new protein with a new and potentially vital function. New protein, new function, new information.

Although such an event might seem highly unlikely, it turns out that the TRIM5-CypA protein has evolved independently in two separate groups of monkeys. In general, though, the evolution of a new gene usually involves far more than one mutation. The most common way for a new gene to evolve is for an existing gene to be duplicated. Once there are two or more copies, each can evolve in separate directions.

The duplication of genes or even entire genomes is turning out to be ubiquitous. Without a duplication of the entire genome in the ancestor of modern-day brewer's yeast, for instance, there would be no wine or beer. It is becoming clear that every one of us has extra copies of some genes, a phenomenon called copy number variation.

The evolution of more complex body plans appears to have been at least partly a result of repeated duplications of the Hox genes that play a fundamental role in embryonic development. Biologists are slowly working out how successive mutations turned a pair of protoHox genes in the simple ancestors of jellyfish and anemones into the 39 Hox genes of more complex mammals.

Newly minted

Can mutation really lead to the evolution of new species?

Yes. Several species of abalone shellfish have evolved due to mutations in the protein "key" on the surface of sperm that binds to a "lock" on the surface of eggs. This might appear impossible, but it turns out that some eggs are prepared to be penetrated by deviant sperm. The same thing can happen in fruit flies, and likely in many other groups too. In yeasts, the mutations that led to some new species forming have not only been identified, they have even been reversed.

The list of examples could go on and on, but consider this. Most mutations can be reversed by subsequent mutations - a DNA base can be turned from an A to a G and then back to an A again, for instance. In fact, reverse mutation or "reversion" is common. For any mutation that results in a loss of information, logically, the reverse mutation must result in its gain. So the claim that mutations destroy information but cannot create it not only defies the evidence, it also defies logic.

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...s-mutations-can-only-destroy-information.html
 
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Evolution should have plenty of evidence if this is correct?, can you show how mutations improved upon the species and above the species, if this actually is one of the mechanisms that a species evolved into another completely different species?.

Arrrgh... Again, mutations don't "improve" by default. They simply change, the changes that give an advatage at any given time, tend to carry forwards. The same changes carried forwards may be useless in a few hundred thousand years.

Didn't need to go far for this, good ole Wiki.

"DNA repair is a collection of processes by which a cell identifies and corrects damage to the DNA molecules that encode its genome. In human cells, both normal metabolic activities and environmental factors such as UV light and radiation can cause DNA damage, resulting in as many as 1 million individual molecular lesions per cell per day.[1] Many of these lesions cause structural damage to the DNA molecule and can alter or eliminate the cell's ability to transcribe the gene that the affected DNA encodes. Other lesions induce potentially harmful mutations in the cell's genome, which affect the survival of its daughter cells after it undergoes mitosis. As a consequence, the DNA repair process is constantly active as it responds to damage in the DNA structure. When normal repair processes fail, and when cellular apoptosis does not occur, irreparable DNA damage may occur, including double-strand breaks and DNA crosslinkages (interstrand crosslinks or ICLs).[2][3]

The rate of DNA repair is dependent on many factors, including the cell type, the age of the cell, and the extracellular environment. A cell that has accumulated a large amount of DNA damage, or one that no longer effectively repairs damage incurred to its DNA, can enter one of three possible states:
1.an irreversible state of dormancy, known as senescence
2.cell suicide, also known as apoptosis or programmed cell death
3.unregulated cell division, which can lead to the formation of a tumor that is cancerous

The DNA repair ability of a cell is vital to the integrity of its genome and thus to its normal functioning and that of the organism. Many genes that were initially shown to influence life span have turned out to be involved in DNA damage repair and protection.[4] Failure to correct molecular lesions in cells that form gametes can introduce mutations into the genomes of the offspring and thus influence the rate of evolution."
 
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The problem I see is that most mutations cause loss of genetic information. I've no idea how new functionality can result when more genetic information is lost with each mutation.

But you're approaching the question from the wrong angle; Who the hell says that so called 'information' is lost with each mutation?' gene duplication/point-mutation/etc are all examples of how new functionality can arise biologically.


There are many many examples of new functionality arising in mutation;


Lenski's bacteria.

Dichromacy vs trichromacy in great apes

Germ line therapy in labs and in parasites in nature

Mutations that affect the immune system - some people are immune to HIV and other nastiness - most are not, this is mutation and function.



The key to knowing things about the world is to investigate, you can only get so far by asking the same questions over and over (which have been answered over and over)

You're only going to further your knowledge by reading proper literature, I'd suggest starting with 'The selfish gene
 
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Oh, but he did, but just because some talking snake convinced a woman to get an apple from a tree, just because of that silly thing, we all, that is ~70B human beings born to date are born in sing. Even though the catholic church admits that Adam is a fable, still we cannot get rid of the original sin tale.

As said before, it is perfectly understandable to believe in god, but to follow some scriptures, over 2.500 years old, with a vision of the world and universe from someone who had little knowledge of the first and certainly almost none of the last, shows the level of reasoning and education of some people. So educate yourselves, or carry on being sheep ... that is why indoctrination works so well.

I do not believe that genesis in the bible is a fable and I do not see how the Catholic church does either, surely the Jews who still follow the Torah do not see it as a story with no basis in truth.
I mean I find it odd, a talking snake and why the hell God allowed it to dwell there, or at least didn't warn Adam and Eve of it. Though I came to a realisation of Gods existance not from reading scripture, so you could say my faith is not bound by indoctrination.
Surely the scriptures are to be heeded, they talk about times to come, that many believe we are living in right now.
 
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Where do you get your information from that "Most" mutations cause loss of information? Mutations can, and do add information, we are 98% ape and 2% human (give or take, I've not checked the precise numbers)yet that 2% is responsible for all the variations in humans we see today. So tiny addition can cause huge changes. Also you don't necessarily need to add information. Think of it as a book with a million words. That Book can be the Bible or say Alice in Wonderland. The same number, with the same letters just reordered.

Also many harmful mutations are repaired before they have effect

Think about it. If you have a string of information and you change part of it. You have lost what was there previously in terms of meaning. Of course you may gain a new bit of information in its place but the overall meaning/structure has changed from what it was. No completely new information would be added in addition to the original.
 
ringo, there are three explanations above, one from New Scientist, one from Wikipedia and V-Spec's post. Why are you ignoring these? Again, from NS...

Most mutations can be reversed by subsequent mutations - a DNA base can be turned from an A to a G and then back to an A again, for instance. In fact, reverse mutation or "reversion" is common. For any mutation that results in a loss of information, logically, the reverse mutation must result in its gain. So the claim that mutations destroy information but cannot create it not only defies the evidence, it also defies logic.
 
ringo, there are three explanations above, one from New Scientist, one from Wikipedia and V-Spec's post. Why are you ignoring these? Again, from NS...

I'm not ignoring it - your link is dead.

The statement you quote makes no sense to me. If you reverse a mutation you end up with what you had before. Simply restoring it doesn't gain anything, it simply restores you to where to were.

If reverse mutation is common then isn't it even less likely that mutations are preserved down the generations?

This, along with the extremely low probability of related mutations occurring must make the whole thing extremely miraculous.
 
Think about it. If you have a string of information and you change part of it. You have lost what was there previously in terms of meaning. Of course you may gain a new bit of information in its place but the overall meaning/structure has changed from what it was. No completely new information would be added in addition to the original.

That's just not the case. As you say if you think about it.

Lets say the mutation is simply a duplicated squence a repeat if you like. That squence could be tiny and unmeasurable or many thousands of characters but it does add information that wasn't there before, by definition that's new information, that may well be redundant or very significant. Repeating a squence may mean the difference between say one arm or two; being tall or short. It's added new information that wasn't there before. You could also argue that possibly the mutation, misses a squence, that would on the face of it look like information is lost. But what if the squence that got missed was say a cancer trigger. It's not about the total amout of information, it's about which bits are active, and how they change over time.
 
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That's just not the case. As you say if you think about it.

Which part of my statement is wrong?

Lets say the mutation is simply a duplicated squence a repeat if you like. That squence could be tiny and unmeasurable or many thousands of characters but it does add information that wasn't there before, by definition that's new information, that may well be redundant or very significant. Repeating a squence may mean the difference between say one arm or two; being tall or short. It's added new information that wasn't there before. You could also argue that possibly the mutation, misses a squence, that would on the face of it look like information is lost. But what if the squence that got missed was say a cancer trigger. It's not about the total amout of information, it's about which bits are active, and how they change over time.

So if something is copied exactly and the copy then is affected by mutations then what? Duplicating what is already there doesn't give rise to complex new information to build new functionality.
 
Think about it. If you have a string of information and you change part of it. You have lost what was there previously in terms of meaning. Of course you may gain a new bit of information in its place but the overall meaning/structure has changed from what it was. No completely new information would be added in addition to the original.

You need to understand more about how organisms are built, James Watson and Dawkins go into detail about how this occurs in nature.

When something is built in a womb, you don't have a central architect that reads all the genes in the DNA and instructs 'build units' to make the different bits.

It's a chemistry - that is, you have local units obeying local rules, information with the DNA is transcribed and things like liver cells are built, but a liver cell is only interested in it's own tiny piece of the puzzle - it has no knowledge of what's going on around it, or what pancreas cells are doing or what skin cells are doing - chemical processes limit the liver cells so they build a liver.

This means that if you change a 'bit' of the DNA whilst you alter it in it's entirety, only the bit that's been altered will be expressed if transcribed, if it is transcribed - the mutation might be detrimental (cancer) or it might be positive - say for increased metabolic function, or if it's a lung cell - increased lung capacity etc.


If this process goes on, in all DNA over a long time (tens of thousands of years) then evolution predicts that the life form in question can change dramatically depending on it's environment.
 
I do not believe that genesis in the bible is a fable and I do not see how the Catholic church does either, surely the Jews who still follow the Torah do not see it as a story with no basis in truth.
I mean I find it odd, a talking snake and why the hell God allowed it to dwell there, or at least didn't warn Adam and Eve of it. Though I came to a realisation of Gods existance not from reading scripture, so you could say my faith is not bound by indoctrination.
Surely the scriptures are to be heeded, they talk about times to come, that many believe we are living in right now.

So your religion is better than all those which preceded it, and all those that came after? The catholic church run away from the literal interpretation of the bible many decades ago, since that only ends up in one place: fundamentalism.

I got many fiction books in my library, am I to believe what each one of them says?

"Times to come?" Really?

As I said, I do respect you believing in god, but not on random rules like:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." (Exodus 21:7-8)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol." (Proverbs 23:13-14)


.... etc

So we want to go back to literal interpretation of the "holy" books .... really? I think you lot should move to Afganistan and enjoy! I rather live on a world dominated by a bit more of logic, humanism and science.
 
ringo747, You have 3 main types of mutation, addition, deletion and substitution. Deletion and addition result in a base shift of all the amino acids, which could benefit or not, the organism. It doesn't result in the whole genome changing or whatever.

Substitution swaps one base for another, so this can result in a change of one amino acid, or not, which can produce a change to the good or bad, or non at all.
 
Which part of my statement is wrong?

So if something is copied exactly and the copy then is affected by mutations then what? Duplicating what is already there doesn't give rise to complex new information to build new functionality.

But that's exactly it. It may start as a simple duplication, that duplication may copied incorrectly, that may be duplicated, that may mutate. The changes are tiny over time. Some may do nothing, other might influence, height, colour, hair, resistance to infection. You seem to infer that when and if this extra information is added it has to be useful and do something instantly. It doesn't it's simple a change. It could be a blemish like a birthmark or a hole in the heart, or tiny change in a cell. It's random it doesn't have a design or know where it's going, it's a process. Simply The changes that get through and give an advantage get repeated via offspring. The ones that are disadvantaged don't prosper.

I'm a victim of evolution if you like, my grandfather, father and myself have all have significant heart problems. Medicine now puts far more emphasis on family history, because they now understand how they pass down from one generation to another. It has little if anything to do with "Gods will"

I'm unsubscribing now, thread is just going around the same loop now.
 
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