Soldato
It's simple, ban nine-year old girls.
Arizona nine-year old in Uzi gun lesson accident
- Thread starter Burnsy2023
- Start date
BBC trot out their typically ill informed schpiel using headlines (now edited from the article I read earlier) "high-powered submachine gun".
I know it's semantics, but if you're going to report a story, at least take the time to use the correct terminology and avoid sensationalist phrases like 'high powered'. High powered compared to what?, higher powered than another 9mm pistol, or submachinegun, higherpowered than a .38 special, or a .22 rimfire?
The phrase is meaningless and adds nothing to the reporting of the story other than sensationalist misinformation attention grabbing.
I doubt there are too many americans who are shocked by young kids learning to shoot guns.
That said, the instructor is most certainly at fault here. Paid for it with his life. Shame, but there you go. Accidents happen to people all the time.
They have more people doing more of a certain activity - of course there's going to be more accidents involved with it, because people are stupid.
Typically the polarisation of topics like firearms, demonstrated on small scale here, is exactly the reason why legislation and regulation should be investigated by the less excitable; neither by the fanboy or the anti. Whatever way I look at it, you cannot legislate for stupidity though.
As for practical benefits other than hunting and law enforcement... many people in this country enjoy sport and target shooting of various forms, it's not everyone's thing granted, but a lack of interest by one individual shouldn't be reason enough to curtail the safe activity of another should it? Where do you stop? Guns - don't understand the application of skill in shooting them? BAN. Archery - don't understand the application of skill in shooting arrows? BAN.
Lots of people also like motorsport too, so I don't see the difference you are trying to make. Shooting clubs have practical end economical benefits too, and whilst not a necessity, enjoying a pastime like shooting is no different than many many things people like to do with their time; from drinking to sports to gaming and a lot more besides.
Laws and regulation will attempt to protect everyone, but will always fail in protecting the stupid from themselves. And unfortunately the solution to that problem is not more legislation.
I know it's semantics, but if you're going to report a story, at least take the time to use the correct terminology and avoid sensationalist phrases like 'high powered'. High powered compared to what?, higher powered than another 9mm pistol, or submachinegun, higherpowered than a .38 special, or a .22 rimfire?
The phrase is meaningless and adds nothing to the reporting of the story other than sensationalist misinformation attention grabbing.
I doubt there are too many americans who are shocked by young kids learning to shoot guns.
That said, the instructor is most certainly at fault here. Paid for it with his life. Shame, but there you go. Accidents happen to people all the time.
Whilst you have a point, you too, are not being entirely honest with those statistics - you do not take the difference between the population comparison of the uk to the us - what? 270 million+ as compared to ~70million? I won't say they're directly scalable, but you seem to have forgotten this in your outrage at someone else's opinion. If wingman is farcical and insults intelligent people with his argument, you are also being less than complimentary.Sliver said:
They have more people doing more of a certain activity - of course there's going to be more accidents involved with it, because people are stupid.
Typically the polarisation of topics like firearms, demonstrated on small scale here, is exactly the reason why legislation and regulation should be investigated by the less excitable; neither by the fanboy or the anti. Whatever way I look at it, you cannot legislate for stupidity though.
Haggisman said:
As for practical benefits other than hunting and law enforcement... many people in this country enjoy sport and target shooting of various forms, it's not everyone's thing granted, but a lack of interest by one individual shouldn't be reason enough to curtail the safe activity of another should it? Where do you stop? Guns - don't understand the application of skill in shooting them? BAN. Archery - don't understand the application of skill in shooting arrows? BAN.
Lots of people also like motorsport too, so I don't see the difference you are trying to make. Shooting clubs have practical end economical benefits too, and whilst not a necessity, enjoying a pastime like shooting is no different than many many things people like to do with their time; from drinking to sports to gaming and a lot more besides.
Laws and regulation will attempt to protect everyone, but will always fail in protecting the stupid from themselves. And unfortunately the solution to that problem is not more legislation.
Similar to a story a few years a go when some kid was shooting an UI at a shooting range in fully auto mode and with the recoil the gun started pointing higher and higher until it pointed at the top of his head and he killed himself.
Really, there is no reason anyone should be shooting these guns, let alone children. Leave it to the professionals.
Associate
Where did I say we should own guns to attack the police? I meant we need guns to ensure our civil liberties aren't trampled on by the very government that pretends to protect us...
30,000 deaths from guns is a tragedy, obviously. Actually, one death is a tragedy. I'm not saying there was nothing sad about that guy getting shot, but I don't see why we should change our entire way of life and culture due to a few unfortunate deaths.
Then again, I do love freedom.
Soldato
Because it's not relevant. What is relevant is the number of people dying needlessly every single year just because people think it's their right to own a gun. Maybe if you were directly affected by a gun death in your family, you wouldn't hold such flaccid and insipid views on the subject.
Soldato
Really? Source?
Sounds like something you hear at school "He picked his nose so hard his finger went up into his skull and he pulled out his brain."
Soldato
This, im more pro gun than anti, but I think its stupid to let a 9yr old anywhere near a gun especially a fully automatic one! should be 16+ to use ranges.
Soldato
It really doesn't change the picture if you scale the deaths: is 30,000 vs 250 painting a different picture to 30,000 vs 65?
The point is the externalities of gun ownership has, it is argued, too great an impact on EVERYONE - not just gun owners/enthusiasts. 30,000 annual deaths (as quoted in the thread; I've not checked it) is around the same as USA's annual road deaths (33,000). That's enormous. Other hobbies, such as archery, aren't banned because there are so few serious accidents.
30,000 annual deaths (or 30,000 minus the 250 that the UK suffers, pro rata) would be saved from stupidity and actual violence were the USA to drastically tighten gun laws and attitudes.
That may not be exactly how it happened, but it is true:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27399337/...ccidentally-kills-self-gun-show/#.U_3KDmNe-ZE
What about the NSA spying fiasco, or online censorship or the deep rooted racial issues that plague the US? When have guns ever actually helped the civil rights incursions that affect people on a daily basis? They don't. Negotiation and consensus does.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-christopher-bizilj-died-firing-uzi-urged-son/story?id=12565132
there are graphic youtube videos if you want.
The reason why I, and I'm sure many others, dislike gun ownership laws in America so much is not necessarily because of deaths like this one that happen on ranges (that's not to say it's acceptable of course, but people on ranges know the risks and accept them, in much the same way as racing drivers do when they get in to high powered sports cars and drive around race tracks), but those that happen outside ranges because of the sheer number of guns in circulation and how easy it appears to be to get hold of one. For example the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. That happened because it was far too easy for someone to get hold of a gun, not because the children and adults that died were partaking in an "activity" that had associated risks.
Compare that to the UK, and it is much much harder to get hold of a gun (not that I have ever tried of course, but I can be fairly sure that is the case) simply because the laws are stricter and far fewer people own them. Therefore these kind of incidents rarely happen in this country.
And on the "freedom" thing, you clearly aren't too fussed about such loose gun laws otherwise you wouldn't live in the UK
.
Soldato
111 deaths/million vs 1 death/million, it's still a vastly significant difference
I'm not disputing that at all, just making the point that comparing a leisure activity to one which is a necessity to some, and a huge convenience to most, is utterly irrelevant.
Well, surely if there was an age limit or total ban on certain weapons, then that 9 year old girl would never have gotten her hands on an uzi, and the instructor would still be alive... (other than in the most extreme cases where the parents decide "sure, lets take our under-age 9 year old to fire an illegal firearm at a dodgy firing range, what could possibly go wrong?"
)I disagree - you would probably reduce the number of accidents, but in the cases of self-defence/murder/etc. it would have simply been a different weapon used (which yes, in some cases may not have been as fatal).
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Soldato
There's no way kids should ever be trusted to handle automatic weapons with such a massive amount of potential recoil. If the recoil starts to kick too much they will panic, and instead of letting go of the trigger, will push down on it even more. Even a pistol would have been more acceptable in this case, though I don't believe kids should be allowed to handle weapons at all as they're far too dangerous.
Common sense would have prevented his death.
Common sense would have prevented his death.
Soldato
Not strictly true given the girl was 9, a minor and as such not responcible for herself.
Soldato
Actually, if you want to get really pedantic about it, it's lack of oxygen to the brain that kills people
To be fair not all of the guys brain being in his head was more a problem as the brain that wasnt in his head was most likely surrounded by oxygen...
Went sideways from what I've seen. Her hand just goes left and points at the guys face.
Soldato
Hear hear.
Arming the populace will not stop tyranny and the oppression of liberty. See here for historical examples
http://www.armedwithreason.com/mili...ns-dont-prevent-tyranny-but-often-lead-to-it/
Wow... I don't have a problem with instructing children with firearms, etc. but in what existence does it make any sense to let a 9 year old loose, even under instruction, with an uzi semi or fully automatic :S
Even a pistol I'm not really a fan of unless the child has extensive experience and shows good discipline and awareness with firearms. Low calibre, single shot rifles and that kind of thing under instruction though is almost as safe as any other sports activity.
Even a pistol I'm not really a fan of unless the child has extensive experience and shows good discipline and awareness with firearms. Low calibre, single shot rifles and that kind of thing under instruction though is almost as safe as any other sports activity.
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