Arsenal & Arsene Wenger

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Vela was given no opportunities in the league, I can't remember the numbers as the fantasy league thing doesn't track players who have left, but he had something like 300-400 minutes total a season, spread across 3 entire starts in 3 seasons in the league and not even that many sub appearances. He was never given a real run, despite getting goals and doing well in his starts in other competitions, despite being played out of position in almost all his games. He's a top player, always was, there are barely any players in the world who can just be at their best getting 3-4 starts a season and 5-10 mins if lucky every few games as a sub, usually in games that are basically over.

Funnily enough, if you looked up who compared favourably to Cazorla when thinking about buying him, you might get told, "theres this kid at Sociedad who outscored and out assisted Cazorla last year, his names Vela, we should have a look at him". :(

The awful thing is, Gervinho has been given dozens of games, and proven in each one how crap he is, Vela proved how good he was with no form in cup games, yet wasn't given any time in the league to get a bit of form and prove himself. Wenger does this to loads of players, some guys get starts when they are fit no matter what, Sagna, Diaby, doesn't matter how crap they are, other guys who show they can be really good in the very rare appearances, get absolutely no chance from Wenger to really show their stuff. Gervinho has made how many appearances, despite being crap in basically every one, while Vela never even got 2 starts in a row, over 3 years.

The second he got a little backing from a manager in La liga and his form went through the roof and he's now a key part of a team that was struggling in relegation fights when he joined, and this season fighting for a european place........

The fact Wenger never gave him a run of games, say a 10 game run start half, a decent sub run out in the other half, says everything you need to know about Wenger. Wasteful prat, we sold off Vela, a top player, for next to nothing purely because he wouldn't give him a chance. Chelsea did the same with Sturridge, its not unique to Wenger, but Wenger has done it to a huge number of players over the years.
 
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He had quite a few chances off the bench, which is how you would expect young up and coming players to develop. He did ok in the league and FA cups etc against easier teams but never really pushed on.
 
Now even Mikel Silvestre is mocking Arsenal.

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Don't understand Viera tho. How can you as a former Captain of Arsenal go and work for Man City, at the detriment of the Gunners?

That’s just blasphemy and really is unforgivable.
 
drunkenmaster said:
No, anyone who mentions championship manager in a serious way in a discussion about professionals who have a job to do is ridiculous.

I am not a football scout, YOU are not a football scout, a professional football scout making a very decent wage can absolutely be expected to know who Michu is. More specifically a man who has been manager for 15 years, that has a network of scouts, and all of them missed him... is failing badly.

Just because other clubs didn't spot him doesn't make it a less bad failure, its an equally bad failure for other clubs. Of course that assumes other clubs were interested in an attacking central midfielder, we were. Think about it and don't do that boring internet thing of refusing to concede a patently obvious point for the sake of it.

You're a paid football scout who watches the big leagues, you get 5-20k a week depending on who you are, thats a very good wage.... do you not know EVERY player in the league because thats your freaking job?

I've already said Wenger, I can understand, scouting isn't actually his job, though hiring scouts IS his job, and if they aren't doing a good job, he's responsible. His defensive coach isn't doing(or rumours are isn't allowed to do) his job, and Wenger is responsible for that, Diaby doesn't do his job, and wenger is responsible for that as well.

When Michu is outscoring all other midfielders in La liga, when he's outscoring, Cesc, Iniesta, Villa, Ozil, Di Maria, Cazorla, that a scout might want to find out if he's any good? Likewise if you realise Cazorla is available, do you decide to compare him to other players in a similar position in the same league who would play the same teams throughout the season as Santi. I know if I was Wenger, and someone recommended Santi to me, I'd ask who else is available, how does he rate in comparison to other players of the same position in the same league. If someone said, he's 17mil and scored 9, and btw Michu scored 15 playing the same position and he'd probably cost almost 1/10th as much, I'd probably have a quick look to see if he was any good... but thats just me.
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So why didn't anyone else sign him? If Arsenal have such bad scouts then who are these 'good scouts'? Plenty of teams in the EPL alone were after attacking midfielders and didn't buy him. I don't give a **** about Gervinho or any of your other signings, I'm not defending Wenger's transfer policy at all. I'm specifically addressing your attitude towards Michu, so don't bring in all this other stuff that isn't relevant to the point we're discussing. If Michu was such an obvious talent and available so cheap, why did almost the entirety of top level football not make a move for him?
 
opethdisciple said:
Now even Mikel Silvestre is mocking Arsenal.

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Don't understand Viera tho. How can you as a former Captain of Arsenal go and work for Man City, at the detriment of the Gunners?

That’s just blasphemy and really is unforgivable.
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Simple, City offered him the job, with a no doubt lucrative wage, we didn't offer him anything.
 
On the one hand Wenger represents that Arsenal can only do so much to compete in the modern premier league against the last 10 seasons of silly money sugar daddy owners and should be commended for keeping them in competition in general with that pack.

On the other hand he should be kicked for not developing the team and the style of football they play. Arsenal have over the years really lost their way in playing any real style of successful football to a point now where the team looks lost and struggles to go forward with any conviction. Partly this is playing average players out of position (theo) and partly pandering to massive egos and playing his little favourites instead of those in form or who are good. Thinking back to RVP looking like he wanted to kill Wenegr taking AOC off last season summed that up a bit.

Wenger knows his time is up and the failure of his age old transfer tactic (praise a player in the news repeatedly to turn their head for champions league) has stopped working sice AOC which just makes the whole affair even more depressing.

Usually I hate seeing a manager sacked but realistically there's no other way to improve Arsenal.
 
i did a search to see if there was a similar thread wanting wenger out and it seems there are tons.

the first ever thread made something like 4 seasons ago only had maybe one or two that wanted wenger out, the next thread had a bit more pushing for the idea for wenger to be out and fast forward to now and its more like 80% of people now want him out.

see the trend? if we fast forward to one years time with wenger in charge and the possibily of arsenal being in the same position next year ie about to go another year without winning a trophy i can see pretty much everyone wanting him out.

To all who want him to stay. exactly why do u want him to stay? are u a nuetral fan or a fan of a rival arsenal side like spurs?

To all netral/arsenal fans, what would it take for u to convince u that wenger is not the right man for the job? miss top 4? go another season without a trophy? finish mid table? relegated?(extreme i know). What is your limit?
 
Keep him until the end of his contract, but have serious considerations then. Can't see him renewing tbf. Firing him would be rubbish and it won't happen imo
 
Shamikebab said:
So why didn't anyone else sign him? If Arsenal have such bad scouts then who are these 'good scouts'? Plenty of teams in the EPL alone were after attacking midfielders and didn't buy him. I don't give a **** about Gervinho or any of your other signings, I'm not defending Wenger's transfer policy at all. I'm specifically addressing your attitude towards Michu, so don't bring in all this other stuff that isn't relevant to the point we're discussing. If Michu was such an obvious talent and available so cheap, why did almost the entirety of top level football not make a move for him?
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Well you ask why no one else signed him, even though he was signed by a team in the EPL and is now being a successful EPL player.

Why are you asking me, am I a scout for a premier league club, no, so your question should be aimed at scouts of clubs in the EPL.

Why didn't anyone else buy him, I don't know, Wigan might have known about him, but went with Kone instead(scored the same as Michu) but wanted someone who was more of a striker than a midfielder, or wanted someone with more pace, or it was for a smaller wage, or Michu turned them down.

For all I know, half the premier league offered him a contract and he chose Swansea/Laudrup over other offers. Maybe we knew about him and Wenger decided to keep Diaby, make no attempt to move Diaby or Rosicky on and so decided not to buy him, which is again my exact problem with Wenger.

If I was the Arsenal manager, I'd be looking straight away to offload the crap, buy in a few pretty damn good players and replace the crappy useless rotation/backup players with cheap alternatives who offer good potential, Michu would have fallen into that bracket, even if I bought Cazorla, Michu would have made an excellent addition for 2mil.

I've repeatedly said what I think Wenger's problem is, you don't go replacing Messi, or Ronaldo, or RVP, or any pretty decent player... Wenger's entire problem at the moment is he thinks Diaby/Rosicky/Walcott/Gibbs and the likes are top players that aren't worth replacing.

If Wenger was actually actively looking to replace Diaby he might well have bought Michu, but he thinks in Diaby we have someone who can help us win a title....

You keep pushing what I've said about Michu where you want it and don't like my replies that don't fit what you want. I don't care about Michu, nor what you think I've said about Michu, I would like him at the club, I don't care that the club didn't sign him. I care that our scouts are picking out guys like Santos and Gervinho, and both our scouts and Wenger are watching them and thinking they are good enough. Wenger watches Diaby and thinks he's good enough, this is the problem not Michu. Michu is a representation of the kind of player we should be going for, he's simply a good player, nothing more or less, for 2mil its an exceptionally low risk deal at this level so yes we should have bought him, and yes guys paid between half a mil and 10mil a year(scouts and Wenger) should know about him, its their job to know about the most promising players available.

I find it hilarious that you think I'm nuts for suggesting people whose job description is to find good players and keep up to date on whose doing well in every league should know about a good player widely seen in probably Europes best league last year, like its some kinda voodoo magic that Swansea and no one else knew about him.
 
jonney_joop said:
i did a search to see if there was a similar thread wanting wenger out and it seems there are tons.

the first ever thread made something like 4 seasons ago only had maybe one or two that wanted wenger out, the next thread had a bit more pushing for the idea for wenger to be out and fast forward to now and its more like 80% of people now want him out.

see the trend? if we fast forward to one years time with wenger in charge and the possibily of arsenal being in the same position next year ie about to go another year without winning a trophy i can see pretty much everyone wanting him out.

To all who want him to stay. exactly why do u want him to stay? are u a nuetral fan or a fan of a rival arsenal side like spurs?

To all netral/arsenal fans, what would it take for u to convince u that wenger is not the right man for the job? miss top 4? go another season without a trophy? finish mid table? relegated?(extreme i know). What is your limit?
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The stupid thing is, he hasn't changed at all, in a single way, in 8 years, there has been no sign of change, no sign of improvement. This is why I've been vocal about it the longest, because this point was coming 5+ years ago, it was evident that Wenger was too stuborn to change, unable to impose any kind of tactical knowledge for specific games, unable to change a team while a game is in play, unable to spot great players any more, unable to change. He was fixed in a way of managing that would steadily decline the team every single year, this was patently obvious years ago, and had we got rid then, the team would have been in a ridiculously stronger position for a new manager to take over from.

AT this stage, a new manager has a weak squad, a lot of trash players, a lot of players on wages 2-3 times what anyone else would offer them and even if Wenger goes today, like Liverpool, it will be 3-4 years waiting for all those players contracts to run out, the players to leave, the wages to be freed up and a new team can be built. A better manager can have an instant impact and improve us defensively, drop the worst players and play our best players, and hopefully have some funds to buy 2-3 players, we can be better than we are today, quite easily.

But wholesale change, seriously challenging for a title, till we're not paying Diaby, Rosicky, Djourou, Walcott, Gervinho, Gibbs, Mert and half the youth/reserves then we won't have the money available to have a squad that reflects the wages we're spending.
 
If DM put all his effort into something productive rather than ranting on an internet forum that nobody actually gives a **** about, he'd be a millionaire LOL.
 
jonney_joop said:
well looks like we lost tonight. did not see the game.same lacklust performance? surely wenger has to go now?
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Tbh not really, i thought we played well but lacked the killer touch in the end. We managed to breach the almighty Bayerns defence off a corner that shouldnt have been given lolol...the ref was terrible, handed out like 6 yellow cards in the first half :/.

But we dominated possession as per usual but as i said just lacked the quality in the end. Which is what we do against teams ie Blackburn but cant score for toffee:p.

Defensively we still look like an absolute joke though, everytime Bayern came forward, they looked likely to score whereas everytime we went forward we didnt look like we were going to score but somehow Pod got a goal against his old team and Wenger goes and subs him off for Giroud, who again missed the net by smashing the ball right at Neur:p.

One thing is that we didnt get hammered like i thought we would, still 3-1 loss and i cant see us bagging 3 goals at Bayern and then not conceding to them.
 
If arsenal still had rvp instead of giroud then I think arsenal would have one of the highest gd in the league. They'd be top 4. Without someone to get those gamewinners it can really hurt you.

Not the rest of the team isn't the standard it was in the pires/ ljungberg/ henry days but selling rvp to a rival has been a huge 2 way swing.
 
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