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Baroness Thatcher has died.
- Thread starter psd99
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[TW]Fox;24085709 said:
They would have closed anyway because the miners themselves via the NUM was driving the business into the ground. However they would have swallowed up even more taxpayers money before it happened. Thatcher didn't kill the mines, the NUM, Scargill and a cheaper global market did. It is no surprise the miners will blame Thatcher though as otherwise they would need to look a little closer to home and realise their own actions led to their downfall. Where Thatcher was at fault however was letting the old mining communities hang out to dry for the most part after the mines closed.
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[TW]Fox;24085709 said:
What's the point? It's not going to happen, why debate it?
Lots of them certainly, but not all.
The daw mill colliery was running fine until the pit fire closed it recently.
There's a middle-ground between throwing everyone on the dole and leaving the mines completely alone. A few or several years of retraining would have worked miracles, but instead hundreds of thousands of people (who had worked in a single industry their entire lives) were suddenly forced into unemployment in regions where no alternative source of employment existed.[TW]Fox;24085709 said:
I have no argument with the position that it was uneconomical to keep the mines open, but Thatcher went about closing them in the most destructive way possible. A lot of this crap that Tories whine about today - unemployment, the welfare generation - was a direct result of their "**** you, financial services are more important than keeping plebs in work" attitude.
I think it's extremely relevant; people blame her for what happened to miners and the communities but don't consider what would have happened to those same communities had no such decisions been made.
I don't recall saying she was hated by all. The apathetic majority and those that think well of her would be who? The working people north of Watford, those from the pit villages, or perhaps the rich and those who had/have more affluent lives.
I well remember the poll tax riots, yes those people on the news reports looked pretty apathetic if my long memory serves me well.
How about the vast middle class? Theres more to this country than the working class and the toffs you know.
I thought i was quite clearly talking about there here and now rather than the time of the riots...Hence my use of the present tense.
[TW]Fox;24085709 said:
if they did not work, is the answer to close them down ?
same thing i guess with people not willing to work, is the answer to get an immigrant to take their place ?
I'm guessing everyone in this country could be replaced by an immigrant willing to do the job for less.. so should the country be shut down and re-opened by foreigners..
Building things or selling things to export is better than a service sector, why didn't they just make the mines/ship yards more efficient and subsidize them like the government currently do for companies like nissan.. in the long run doesn't it make more sense ? as we're bringing money into the country, where as its replacement, the service sector doesn't.
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Yeah, but you can't go changing history one decision at a time; haven't you heard of chaos theory (or Walter Bishop
?)For the sake of our futures can we leave the past as it is?
I asked a similar question earlier in the thread...funnily enough, no answers were forthcoming
There are more than one way to catch a skinned monkey rabbit.
Surely not having an alternative (to something so massive and complicated) doesn't exempt something from criticism.
Yeah, but you can't go changing history one decision at a time; haven't you heard of chaos theory (or Walter Bishop
For the sake of our futures can we leave the past as it is?
Don't worry, we don't have a time machine to actually change anything so this is purely hypothetical and chaos theory doesn't apply, but I do appreciate most of it will be wild speculation as there's no way to possibly know.
I'm just intrigued as to what state people think those communities would now be in were a more moderate approach taken. As with [TW]Fox this isn't meant to be a loaded question, I'm genuinely curious.
People mention years of retraining for other professions, what kind of professions are we talking about? Large communities based around the mining/manufacturing industry would require a significant industry to replace it surely?
No, and people are more than welcome to criticise...but they should also at least consider that what happened was inevitable and try to come up with a logical and viable alternative to the actions she took. If they are unable to do so, perhaps it might make them realise it wasnt such an easy thing.
Most people ive spoken to dont give a thought to why it happened, they just insult her and her actions. They dont consider the alternatives and dont consider what others might have done in her place.
I dont really care if people insult the woman or her policy choices, but at least think about things before you do it. Sadly in this day and age, precious few actually do think things through before exploding.
PS, i dont mean your good self.
I don't think that the mining would have gone on forever, I don't think many believe this either, but to take everything away from communities built around it and provide nothing in return, not to mention the terrible manner in which it occurred was, just, terrible.
There are many ways to do things.
There are many ways to do things.
Soldato
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Mixed feeling in regards to Thatcher, Iron Lady with the safe issues, Miners, other working classes and Falklands. Weak on the difficult issues like N Ireland and world polictics. Saying all that Labour has had their revenge, with the benefit system and mass immigration. The chance of another Thatcher are very slim now.
The coal industry in the UK had been in rapid decline from the early 60's, it lived on borrowed time throughout the 70's and by the 80's it had all but out lived its usefulness. Scargill rather than looking out for the miners contimued to flog a very dead horse instead of working with the government to ease the closures in over a larger timeframe.
Of course isn't it much better to blame someone you didn't vote for rather than admit you backed the wrong person.
Of course isn't it much better to blame someone you didn't vote for rather than admit you backed the wrong person.
Soldato
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I feel sick. Not going to touch national media for a week with this one.
I hope she repented in later life, but i doubt it. Well at least she is nice and warm now...
I hope she repented in later life, but i doubt it. Well at least she is nice and warm now...
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