Baroness Thatcher has died.

[semi-pro waster]

Ultra Conservative attitude?

Lol. She was liberal compared to the average untra conservative politician.

In American terms certainly she's almost a cuddly socialist type compared to some of their more extreme conservative politicians but in a British context she was quite conservative.

While what you say is true, it is probably worth adding the context that Tony blair never equalled thatchers best result, and the falloff in support over the three elections was much more dramatic, culminating in a win of 35% in 2005 (lower than the conservative vote in 2010 and acheiving a majority through a biased system).

Put in context, the information provided above looks a lot less damning.

Different timeframes though so it's somewhat difficult to compare fairly I'd have thought i.e. if Mrs Thatcher had been running for PM in the late 90s would there still have been such large levels of voter apathy? I think you could probably present a case that disengagement from the political process and disaffection with politicians would mean that any leader would struggle to get electoral turnouts approaching/above 70% again although we do appear to be on a bit of an upswing for the past few elections. Correspondingly in absolute terms the amount voting for any one party is also likely to be lower unless they somehow manage to swing a huge majority.

 

[Freakbro]

While what you say is true, it is probably worth adding the context that Tony blair never equalled thatchers best result, and the falloff in support over the three elections was much more dramatic, culminating in a win of 35% in 2005 (lower than the conservative vote in 2010 and acheiving a majority through a biased system).

Put in context, the information provided above looks a lot less damning.

It wasn't about being damning, it was just putting into perspective the image that because she won 3 general elections, the majority of the country swung behind her and supported her, it didn't. She stuck to her conservative principles, didn't change and appealed to her base, fair does.

Hell, don't forget the conservatives won the next election too under John Major, and I don't think anyone was more surprised than John himself! He had been put in as the fall guy to take the loss and not ruin the future chances of any credible prospective conservative leader, they were in complete disarray at the time, with endless scandals about sleaze and corruption, and still won....I remember that day acutely, the feeling of depression across the country was palpable.

I know what you are saying with the comparison to Blair, but it's a bit apples and oranges, no? Thatcher stuck to her conservative principles, Blair had no Labour ones? How he won 3 elections is a travesty of our electorial system,as was the 4 victories of the previous conservatives, and we had our chance to change it, but unfortunately blew it..

 

[Dolph]

It wasn't about being damning, it was just putting into perspective the image that because she won 3 general elections, the majority of the country swung behind her and supported her, it didn't. She stuck to her conservative principles, didn't change and appealed to her base, fair does.

Hell, don't forget the conservatives won the next election too under John Major, and I don't think anyone was more surprised than John himself! He had been put in as the fall guy to take the loss and not ruin the future chances of any credible prospective conservative leader, they were in complete disarray at the time, with endless scandals about sleaze and corruption, and still won....I remember that day acutely, the feeling of depression across the country was palpable.

I know what you are saying with the comparison to Blair, but it's a bit apples and oranges, no? Thatcher stuck to her conservative principles, Blair had no Labour ones? How he won 3 elections is a travesty of our electorial system,as was the 4 victories of the previous conservatives, and we had our chance to change it, but unfortunately blew it..

And to compound the issue further, john major set a popular vote that hasn't yet been exceeded. I too remember the 1992 election, a bizarre mix of disappointment and relief that things hadn't changed.

It is a shame we blew the chance to change the system, as you say, it failed in many ways. unfortunately, with the current coalition, the uk public has proved they arent ready for compromise politics yet.

 

[Biohazard]

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Freakbro]

It is a shame we blew the chance to change the system, as you say, it failed in many ways. unfortunately, with the current coalition, the uk public has proved they arent ready for compromise politics yet.

I don't know, I thought the current Con/Lib government should have shown the country coalition politics does work, thus help to dispel the scaremongering and outright lies the No to AV campaign were peddling.

 

[Dolph]

I don't know, I thought the current Con/Lib government should have shown the country coalition politics does work, thus help to dispel the scaremongering and outright lies the No to AV campaign were peddling.

I thought so too, but a big issue seems to have been protest voters who hadn't read the lib dem manifesto or listened to the leader of the party talk about the approach taken getting all upset that the lib dems weren't a party of the left (despite them never being so), labour voters finally realising that the lib dems were not a subsidary of the labour party (something that goes back to the sdp) and the tory voters getting annoyed that they couldn't do everything they wanted.

The problem is people, rather than the system, although the broad church parties caused by fptp almost certainly don't help in this.

 

[elmarko]

It is a shame we blew the chance to change the system, as you say, it failed in many ways. unfortunately, with the current coalition, the uk public has proved they arent ready for compromise politics yet.

For once we are in agreement.

But personally I thought AV was rubbish - what we should have gone for was proportional representation.

Not that it would have mattered, as most of the public seemed to vote against it without even knowing the difference between AV and FPTP (when I quizzed people I knew).

The hilarious thing will be if in the next election the Lib Dems get destroyed (all the voters goto Labour from them) then all the disgruntled Tory's vote for UKIP (making the current government wish they actually had opted for AV).

Having the "left" vote split between Lib Dems & Labour is fantastic for the Conservatives in FPTP - I would find it comical if it ends up costing them the next election (not that I like Labour either).

 

[player]

I'm from the North West and there is no way I'd have been as financially sound if it hadn't been for the Thatcher government of the 80s.

They laid the seeds for my current role and line of work, to the dismay of many of my friends and family if it wasn't for her I would have most likely seen myself working in a low-paid manual role.

 

[Biohazard]

Courtesy of BBC breakfast this morning;

......!

 

[Amp34]

Ultra Conservative attitude?

Lol. She was liberal compared to the average untra conservative politician.

I like how people portray the sale of council housing, half say it was a way to get people on the housing ladder and increase social mobility, while persuading people to look after their area as they now had more of an interest, while the other half say she was buying votes and didn't improve social mobility at all. On the other hand how many of each side would still be pro or anti her because they always have and always will be, no matter what she did... All this "snob" and "Tory" that, "posh", "rich", because only the rich and powerful agree with her...

 

[Amp34]

iirc she garnered the same quantity of votes in all 3 elections, between 13 - 13.7M, so it was just the same people voting for the conservative government at the time, and had more to do with the collapse of support for any of the other parties rather than any swinging endorsement of Thatcher.

And remember, it was her own party that stabbed her in the back and got rid of her in the end, the same people now waxing lyrical about how wonderful she was.

That's still pretty close to half the voting population.. Using my patented back of the envelope techniques...

 

[Amp34]

I'm from the North West and there is no way I'd have been as financially sound if it hadn't been for the Thatcher government of the 80s.

They laid the seeds for my current role and line of work, to the dismay of many of my friends and family if it wasn't for her I would have most likely seen myself working in a low-paid manual role.

Same here.

 

[Biohazard]

Can either of you explain for me if you would how "if it wasn't for her" you wouldn't be where you are now?

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Condensed conversation:

When did you and Paul set up home?
1983
Can you remember what his wages were then?
I distinctly remember I got £70 take home at Russell Hobbs and he got double what I got at Hem Heath.
What about overtime?

SNIP

True gent. Man of honour proven again.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

I notice a slight change in your tone when drawing back to the miners, is this just me?

I'm not sure. My stance has always been that miners could be perceived as greedy by others due to their actions. I stand by my comments that I believe some were. The widely reported reason for going on strike was mine closures, but in the background there were also issues such as an overtime ban and wages.

My overall opinion is the strike was unreasonable and a result of Scargill (I think he is on record) refusing any closures for any reason other than safety or coal exhaustion. In a way I suppose that was his job, but it was exactly this kind of dogged resistance that was throttling our industries and why were being left behind by our foreign counterparts.

But I suppose it is easy to be an armchair politician when your own life is not affected. Would I have felt differently if I were a miner? I'm not sure.

I have been made redundant a couple of times myself, and on one occasion 2 days before Christmas. When I knew my job was going, of course I wasn't happy but understood it was necessary and a group of men made redundant then meant that at least the majority would still have a job 5 years later and all the supporting businesses would still have a role. But if they maintained the jobs of those they made redundant, the potential was that none of us would have had a job in 5 years because the company folds (and the supplying business are also hard hit too, possibly also folding). As such, I dusted myself off, and moved on. Likewise, if I feel that working conditions are not right, I vote with my feet just as soon as I am able, I don't spit my dummy out and start making unreasonable demands.The logical conclusion if we put individual jobs over the future of a company or industry is eventual collapse. We were doing just that with mining, or at least the NUM were trying to impose that via striking.

I'm not entirely sure where that puts me politically/socially. That is just how I feel and how I have always felt in relation to work.

I suppose I struggle to understand the position of the NUM and miners because it clashes with my own feelings towards work. It just seems like madness to me that they refused to lose 20k workers in efforts to try and secure the future of the industry for the majority. Whilst their dispute and the ensuing government retaliation may not have directly sealed the fate of all, I think it certainly drew it far closer and far quicker than it would have if they accepted some losses were necessary for the future of the industry. As such I think the generally accepted attitude of the union at the time was just as much to blame for the problems of the strike as Thatcher was.

Although I concede the apparent lack of any investment or help for those made redundant in the years after the strikes seems spiteful as well as unwise. But I am still reading up on that so I accept it is perhaps an ill informed opinion.

Cheers

Buff

 

[NeilF]

I'm truly saddened by the cynical childish insults and attitude we're seeing towards Thatcher.

I was speaking to my mother a few days ago and she put it very nicely - Thatcher was a politician who did what needed to be done, no matter how unpopular it was with voters. This is something to be commended, and unfortunately is not common enough in today's politics.



Thought I'd post a few statements I've seen posted around the internet demonstrating the stupidity and clear blind illogical hatred some of these folks show:-

"the most evil of dictators we have ever known...." - Really?

"Other countries will never know how much she was hated in Britain" - So hated she was repeatedly re-elected?

"I'm just ####ed that she had a massive stroke, she would not have suffered at all" - Charming stuff!


However, there are some rays of hope. I noticed this comment in response to someone saying Thatcher had no compassion:-

No compassion, what compassion did the unions have requesting 35% pay rises above inflation? What compassion did they have when the dead weren't being buried, what compassion did they have when electricity was only on four three days a week, what compassion did they have with the rats in the street and rubbish not collected. Three months wait to get a government telephone.

The communists and the unions were bleeding the country dry and they over threw one labour government until the iron lady arrived. The electorate voted in Maggie to smash the unions and get the country going again. Maggie never supported the unions or their industrial power bases for a reason because; they'd come back and bleed us again. Yet labour copied her economics in the 90's and de-regulated the city even further, the jokers had ****ged her years earlier.

She took us from 19th in the world economically to 4th, kept sterling and was suspicious of europe for good reason now it seems. Today many would not own there own homes and be state dependent.

RIP Maggie a Great Britain.

I hope tomorrow's funeral goes smoothly. But I fear some of these small minded idiots will be just too compelled to act idiotically.

 

[player]

Can either of you explain for me if you would how "if it wasn't for her" you wouldn't be where you are now?

No I'm too busy working.

 

[NeilF]

No I'm too busy working.

Quality!

 

[Faustus]

With her death and subsequent media frenzy, there have been quite a few polls done. They are all easily accessible via your favourite search engine.

It also tallies with my personal experiences and with the views expressed by the anti thatcher crew. IE, that anyone north of a certain point hates her and those south of that point like her. The majority of the country live in the south.

Do you disagree?

Ah! the soft underbelly eh?

 

[Faustus]

I hope tomorrow's funeral goes smoothly. But I fear some of these small minded idiots will be just too compelled to act idiotically.

Well it happened before i.e. it was after all her own that got rid of her so they may just do something again - who knows?