Depends if you see if as a perfectly sensible move that just happened to go wrong or (as many others see it) a stupid move that was never happening made worse by being rough with the car trying to bail out of it. As Jenson said, unless his car was 3" wide, he was never getting down the inside, so he's baffled as to why he even tried and put himself in that position.
Belgium Grand Prix 2010, Spa-Francorchamps Circuit - Race 13/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Yes, he should be blamed. Of course he should - it was his mistake that led to the crash. But he shouldn't be penalised for that mistake, it's not as if he meant to take Button off the road.
Monaco '08 set the precedent, with Kimi dropping it on the run down from the tunnel to the chicane and collecting the car in front of him. He wasn't penalised for that, Vettel shouldn't be for his mistake. But like I said, someone needs to have a word with him about some of the things he's doing on-track.
Even if Vettel does go on to win a title that they all keep banging on about. "champion in waiting" and all that duff, he will still have thrown away 2 back to back title chances in the best car. I don't care how young he is it's rare to get that twice and still stuff it up.
How's that the same, he had no controll and collected someone.
This was a pretty unique crash. It wasn't overtaking, it wasn't a usuall mess up either. I'm also sure the fact that it was championship contender and specifically the one causing the crashing staying in the points and the other retiring.
And Vettel did, right? :/
The Vettel/Button incident was the same as in Monaco a few years ago where a Ferrari lost control out of the tunnel and hit a Force India (I think)
What was the penalty in that incident, I thought there was no penalty.
And Vettel did get a drive-through so AFAIK that is a a penalty
What was the penalty in that incident, I thought there was no penalty.
And Vettel did get a drive-through so AFAIK that is a a penalty
How and why did Ferrari lose control coming out of the tunnel, that's the important bit.
As I said it's a tough call and I voted no opinion.
However there's a huge difference, it wasn't an over take or even a glimpse of one. Neither did he simply losse control. He made an aggressive switch in controll which made him lose controll, as such can be seen as an avoidable accident. You just have to decide if the move he made was reasonable or not, to which side of the fence you sit on.
As I said it's a tough call and I voted no opinion.
However there's a huge difference, it wasn't an over take or even a glimpse of one. Neither did he simply losse control. He made an aggressive switch in controll which made him lose controll, as such can be seen as an avoidable accident. You just have to decide if the move he made was reasonable or not, to which side of the fence you sit on.
As much as I dislike Vettel I did not think he deserved a penalty for that, all of these penalties will only make drivers more cautious leading to even less overtaking.
Yes he took out Button but he was also punished as he took himself out of the race, there is a case to be made for the drive-through though, but nothing more than that.
Yes he took out Button but he was also punished as he took himself out of the race, there is a case to be made for the drive-through though, but nothing more than that.
Difficult to punish Webber as his car was lacking a few vital bits afterwards. Vettel on the other hand was still running.
Vettel and Alsonso both need counselling - Webber has completely broken the little german this year and Alonso is just letting his emotions run riot at every race.
I'll be amazed if Vettel manages to get his head together and put together a title charge at this stage.
Very impressed by Hamilton this year and by comparison with his team mate Button has shown last year wasn't a fluke with a trick car.
I'll be amazed if Vettel manages to get his head together and put together a title charge at this stage.
Very impressed by Hamilton this year and by comparison with his team mate Button has shown last year wasn't a fluke with a trick car.
Reliability aside this is hamiltons championship. Red Bull throw points away for fun and although Vettel is the fastest Red Bull driver it's Webber Hamilton will have to fight. Thats not such a tough task.
Button is out of it. 35 points behind and even though Hamilton may have a woe to make him DNF I don't see JB picking up another win this year. It may have looked different had Vettel not nerfed him and had he been allowed to run at hamilton at the last safety car but right now I don't see him out qualifying Hamilton and at best will continue to follow him home.
Alonso is out of it, too many engines used and likely to lose points at the hearing.
Two horse race now and I don't think Webber is anything like good enough to take on Hamilton, as much as I like Webber and would love him to win it after this years issues. I can only see one winner.
Button is out of it. 35 points behind and even though Hamilton may have a woe to make him DNF I don't see JB picking up another win this year. It may have looked different had Vettel not nerfed him and had he been allowed to run at hamilton at the last safety car but right now I don't see him out qualifying Hamilton and at best will continue to follow him home.
Alonso is out of it, too many engines used and likely to lose points at the hearing.
Two horse race now and I don't think Webber is anything like good enough to take on Hamilton, as much as I like Webber and would love him to win it after this years issues. I can only see one winner.
Webber's car was fine. He was "flying".
No, but seriously, his car was fine. He simply misjudged his braking and slammed into the back of the much slower Lotus.
I disagree. Webber's got his act together, hasn't cocked up as often as Vettel and aside from Monza, the rest of the tracks should suit RBR. On that evidence, you're right, there's one winner - Webber.
Just how often this year has webber fluffed the start? Hamilton by contrast seems to get off the line much better in the car. Even if Webber gets pole every race from now on I'd fancy Lewis to beat him to the first corner.
Webber is also pretty crap wheel to wheel. If hamilton gets ahead even if Webber has a faster car he aint getting past.
I don't buy all this and that track will suit our car, they say that every year and then end up head scratching why they are rubbish. Plus we don't know whats gone or going on with the red bull flex. I don't think it's as clear cut anymore to think a certain circuit will favour red bull. After all the sector everyone presumed they would be fastest as at Spa they weren't.
You might want to take note of the word 'afterwards' there. His car was most certainly not fine
The state of his car after the crash is irrelevant.
The question is: was it human error or could it have been avoided?
Vettel's crash was down to misjudgement and error. I don't think he was being reckless. He tried to brake late (perhaps he had a little brain fade as well) and his car began to fishtail out of control. During this time, Button happened to be right in front of Vettel's (out of control car) and he collected Button.
Now, Webber's crash was similar in that he misjudged the timing of his braking (perhaps due to a little brain fade) and as a result he collected the Lotus in front of him.
I remember Hamilton running into the back of Kimi, in Canada, in the pitlane on a red light...he was not punished and neither should he be.
You cannot punish a driver for error/brain-fade. You can however, punish a driver if he does something he shouldnt, on purpose (eg. what MS did to Barrichello in the GP before Spa).
Vettel's crash into Button.
Webber's crash into Heikki.
Hamilton's crash into Kimi.
Barrichello's crash into Alonso.
None of the above were on purpose and therefore should carry any penalty.
I'm not sure he did. To me it looked more like he went for the inside (God only knows why) and during braking realised he had to switch to the outside, as there was no inside to go for but did so far too harshly and in doing so threw the back end round and lost control.
I don't think it just started wobbling under braking as you suggest.
I suppose the easiest way to see is watch the in car footage and see if the car moves and he reacts with opposite lock or if he just steers and then the car keeps going afterwards.