Benifets to be a pirate gamer :(

Hehe. So how can you reject the significance of that which we don't have data for while insisting that the net effect is identical without anything to back it up?

Because it is undeniable logic that causes the equal affect piracy ans second hand games trade has on the industry. It's simply common sense that if no money goes to the developer in both cases that they are causing an identical affect at that level. Yes it is a shallow analysis, however a deeper one would require much more investigation - which to my knowledge hasn't been carried out. It's certainly something I'd be interested in learning more about!

Yes, the chances are the point you brought up is significant - however that is yet to be proven. I have nothing to gain by being right here, I'm not trying to defend my point just for the fun of it. I'm just trying to make people think about the morality of piracy vs second hand games.
 
But you are wrong :)

No one is arguing that the developer receives a direct cut of the transaction of the second hand game sale, because they don't. That's not any kind of analysis, that's just a fact.

Like I said, it's the bottom line of the entire eco-system that matters.
 
I'm just trying to make people think about the morality of piracy vs second hand games.

Ok then, so now your delving into morality, now that is different, legality's aside ;), are you saying that morally speaking pirating a game is just as bad as buying a game secondhand ?, I can understand you saying that it has the same effect in-regards to the developers not gaining any revenue from the secondhand games market but does that make buying games secondhand morally wrong, or as wrong as pirating a game, what do you think ?
 
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No one is arguing that the developer receives a direct cut of the transaction of the second hand game sale, because they don't. That's not any kind of analysis, that's just a fact.

I know, that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm saying requires greater analysis is how much value re-saleability actually adds. It might be the case that it only accounts for a tiny percentage of the total sales in which case for the intents and purposes of moral divides is not significant.

I can understand you saying that it has the same effect in-regards to the developers not gaining any revenue from the secondhand games market but does that make buying game secondhand morally wrong, or as wrong as pirating a game, what do you think ?

In my opinion yes it does, but as wush has explained it does indeed depend on other factors. If a significant percentage of new game sales are influenced by the added value of the possibility of resale then I would say that morally speaking buying second hand games is better than piracy.

Just for the record, I buy second hand regularly :p
 
Why would a decision regarding morality depend on the specifics of the amount of money in question?

I know, that's not what I'm talking about.
That's exactly what you've been talking about until others contested it by bringing up resaleability!
 
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Why would a decision regarding morality depend on the specifics of the amount of money in question?

Most people regard piracy to be immoral due to the fact that no money is being passed on to the developer. If the same is true of second hand game sales (which is what I am suggesting, if the added value of re-saleability is indeed insignificant) then it makes it just as immoral.
 
Mate of mine has a flashed 360 and seriously it is ****** me off at the moment. He got GTA 2 days before release. Theres a custom disk for Guitar hero 3 with loads of new songs that are really good.

He can play online and it costs him nothing but bandwidth and blank disks to get new games.

I've gone completely legit and get a raw deal. It sucks :(

Grass him up :p

Not that it would ever change the cost of how much you get charged for games.. nor the time it takes to get those games to you.
You'll also be safe in the knowledge that the fatcats get richer with a monopoly and that those that designed it have already been made redundant in a vain attempt to reduce base costs in the greatness that is 'market forces' and 'shareholder demands'.

People live in the naive world that if everything was perfectly legal business wouldn't attempt to bend you over backwards and stiff you. Business is worse than war.
 
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Yes. There's no benefit to buying second hand over pirating a game (apart from owning the physical packaging/manual - however that is down to personal preference), the developer and publishers don't see a penny either way.

Nonsense - that's because of the licencing model.

The media & packaging is manufactured once. The licence is bought once and the model of second hand usage means just a transfer of that licence (right to use - assuming the licence is transferable).

The software was developed with a business case that basically will work out how many copies they will sell. Does second hand usage remove additional sales - yes. However there's still one licence in use..
Does this affect the business case - yes. Just in the way that piracy would if it wasn't factored in either.

If there's a non-transfer clause in the licence agreement then those participating in the secondhand sales and purchasing are breaking the contract. It is up to the company to expend effort to recover it's missing revenues.

The companies then have to decide if it's viable to recover revenue - if the cost of recovery for the 10000s of instances verses factoring in a higher piracy/secondhand loss cost in to the business case next time.
Then they have to see if the business case is viable next time with those levels.. if not then no game and most likely no company shortly after.

Online games such as client/server games with a monthly prepaid subscription have a way of reclaiming licence in the event that the account is passed second hand or the client software is pirated.
I would expect many games (even single player) in future to move to that model.
In the long term, there's always someone that will attempt to rebalance and find a way of creating a non-official server (see WoW for example). The requirements to run a server of this type (with more than 30 people) often mean that it's outside of the average playerbase's ability to provide. Thus the number of servers reduces to a a number where it's viable for the companies to go after the individuals running them to reclaim revenue.

My point is that they can see ways of ensuring they get their money - it's normally the legal player base that rejects the idea of monthly payments in favour of a single £40 cost and free play after.
Games companies have already tried to lock the games to require online resources (any successful MMORPG for example). This requires complexity in the games architecture and the capital cost of the servers (which must pay for themselves in 3 years). All this adds additional costs.
So- what if the games companies charged you 6.67 a month on top of the cost of the servers etc for first 6 months of play to cover the development costs? Then a costs to cover you over for the servers etc after?

Games like BF do this by an upfront cost that pays for a certain time period for the service to allow play.. sooner or later once the Booster packs run out then the cost of running the service will nolonger be viable and the servers will be shutdown thus ending the ability of play. You have paid £40 for say 3 years of play - with the additional cost of booster packs..
This think of a booster pack as a payment for the service with the additional content being a reason to get you buy it..

As you can see.. the costs and the risks within the business case for reclaiming those costs are very high as they have a service to setup and run for a specific period in addition to the development costs.
There's many models to recover costs yet the legal player base will moan at the cost of a BF booster pack.. the fact that it's not free.. and that 's the reason why they sympathise, see the big profits being declared because the business model works and go down the route of Piracy..
The games companies can't win - damned if they fail, damned if they're too successful.
 
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Yes. There's no benefit to buying second hand over pirating a game (apart from owning the physical packaging/manual - however that is down to personal preference), the developer and publishers don't see a penny either way.

I disagree with this. Game retailers make money off selling second hand games and this could allow them to keep prices down. This could mean cheaper games for us so can benefit the consumer and games stores over piracy. I say could because I don't know a)how much retailers make off selling second hand games and b)whether this extra income allows them to keep retail prices lower than otherwise.

As I've said I don't know this for a fact but it seems a logical possibility. At least some money is going into the industry. Also second hand games which require subscription of some kind add directly to the developers.
 
Didn't one of the big companies (sony, ms or nintendo or something) want to stop second hand games, I am quite positive I read something like this quite a while ago, but can't remember the specific details.
 
Didn't one of the big companies (sony, ms or nintendo or something) want to stop second hand games, I am quite positive I read something like this quite a while ago, but can't remember the specific details.





It seems that Sony is planning to adopt a licensing system that will mean gamers won't own the PS3 titles that they've paid money for. Instead, they will only be purchasing the licence to play the game and that the software itself will still be Sony property - meaning that the disc won't be the customer's to sell.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/rumors/no-second-hand-ps3-market-176131.php
 
ah, to be naive :)

More like weeks early.

And with the money saved, a new core - sell the pads and memory card etc = £100. Or someone who pirates will have no qualms about re-flashing the drive and sending it back. Warranty stickers are not an issue.

One click gets you the whole thing overnight from different sources.

Yep or just flash the drive youself. It's no biggy at all ;)
 
I played GTA4 on 360 nearly a week before it came out. I still bought it for my PS3. I couldn't wait so sue me !!.

I still bought the game which is what counts.
 
The problem I have is the price for a console game compared to a PC game. I don't see what the extra £20 is going to.

But still I buy all my console games. With Rock Band coming though... could change.
 
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