Boeing 777 shot down

[Glaucus]

Exactly....

The point is they didn't do it on purpose, which both the Ukraine and US appear to be stating.

You do realise that civilian planes take that route all the time, and that they are lit up like a Christmas tree.
Did they think the other passenger plane 25miles behind them was military as well?

It's a criminal act, which ever way you look at it.

And whos saying they did it on purpose? Got a link?

 

[Cosimo]

Read all abbbaaattt t it, 'People Who Have Nothing Resort to Desperate Measures' shocker.

It's hardly anything surprising or new.

Since when did you last hear about belongings being taken from a airplane crash site?

 

[StonedPenguin]

RIP

 

[Danny75]

Which coincidently absolves them from the claims of the US and Ukraine that they are monsters and terrorists. Nope, according to that recording it was a huge mistake and they initially thought it was a valid military target.

There are also vids alleging the time-stamp for the encoding of that video is of the day before MH17 went down.

No idea how accurate that claim is. Still, if there's any truth to that, it might be intercepts mentioning previous shoot-downs, as there have been plenty in the past few months. Even of a transport plane, which would likely have been carrying the items mentioned in that recording (toilet paper etc).

There's also that Spanish air traffic controller who was working in Kiev (mentioned in the video above), who had to flee with his family after receiving death threats as a result of tweeting what happened while he was at work, and claiming it smacked of a cover-up by the Kiev Interior Ministry, and that unusual personnel arrived within seven minutes of the plane disappearing from radar, and began to confiscate all transcripts, and ordered out all foreign workers like himself. Initially, it wasn't known if this guy was real, but yesterday he made a video interview which I watched. Google "Spanish air traffic controller Kiev" for more info.

 

[snips86x]

Since when did you last hear about belongings being taken from a airplane crash site?

Regardless, its a total disrespect for the deceased and their family. Theft is theft and justice should be served!!!

 

[pepsilol]

What, you mean not trusting an airline that flies over a hot military zone, where aircrafts are regularly targeted?



You won't know until you try.

So you wouldn't trust all the other airlines that have been flying over it either? I think I saw Emirates in there.

You do realise the airline gets their info from the ATC, they don't just do it for the lulz?

 

[Amp34]

You do realise that civilian planes take that route all the time, and that they are lit up like a Christmas tree.
Did they think the other passenger plane 25miles behind them was military as well?

It's a criminal act, which ever way you look at it.

I edited my other post while you replied to add this:


There seems to be some tragic misunderstanding at the bottom of this, the rebels declared a no fly zone over them, flight controllers declared a no fly zone to 32,000 feet, not realising the rebels could get to 72,000 feet. Having declared their no fly zone he rebels then shoot down several military planes and then a civilian airliner that flew into the area.

Incompetence and/or a mistake, certainly not deliberate...

In reply to this one:

It was daytime... Lights don't show up well during the day and at 32,000 feet you need some very high powered binoculars to see the Malaysian livery on the side of the plane.

Are you suggesting the rebels deliberately shot down this plane? If so what was their motive?

It may well have been a criminal act, or it could be classed as a tragic mistake. If the former is the case then those responsible (possibly about half a dozen people assuming it wasn't deliberate) need to be arrested and tried in a court of law.

If on the other hand it is decided they thought it was a valid military target them it could be classed in the same category as the passenger planes shot down by the US, Ukraine, Soviet Union and several others where nothing happened to those responsible.

A third option discussed earlier suggests it could have been put on auto and fired completely accidentally.

Just because these rebels aren't western sanctioned or part of a large state does not mean they should be treated significantly differently. While I agree someone should be charged with this I also believe people should be charged for the other downings of civilian planes. What we hold not be doing is ramping up the rhetoric and blaming the rebels as an entity before any proper investigation is done, especially when the tapes Ukraine itself release indicate they did not shoot a civilian plane down on purpose.

 

[Glaucus]

I'm not talking about lights, lol.

 

[shauncr91]

Regardless, its a total disrespect for the deceased and their family. Theft is theft and justice should be served!!!

Looting happens in every war zone, this one is no different it's merely being covered more in western media. I agree it is disgusting but it's hardly surprising and there won't be any 'justice getting served' against those committing the looting.

 

[Amp34]

I'm not talking about lights, lol.

You have obviously forgotten/not seen the conversation earlier in this thread about civilian/military transponders and friend/foe interrogation.

Suffice we don't really know what interrogation the Bak may have done or whether it could pick up civilian transponder signals in the first place.

 

[Glaucus]

I did see it, it's still lol. You took it latterly.

They no aircraft fly over their, as I said there was one flowing it.
Still waiting for where rest say it's confirmed as deliberate. The only thing, I've seen US confirm is that it was a missile, but they can't say from whom.

 

[Amp34]

I did see it, it's still lol. You took it latterly.

They no aircraft fly over their, as I said there was one flowing it.
Still waiting for where rest say it's confirmed as deliberate. The only thing, I've seen US confirm is that it was a missile, but they can't say from whom.

Because someone already posted about it being lot up like a Christmas tree to indicate it would have actual lights. I assumes you meant the same.

So do you think they shot it down deliberately, knowing it was a civil airliner? As I said what is the motive the rebels would have for that?

Edit: re reding what you said it sounds like you may not have made up your mind yet. Personally I don't think they deliberately shot down the plane knowing it was a civilian airliner, I am erring to the side of (assuming the audio releases were accurate) them shooting it down in error thinking it was a military target.

 

[Glaucus]

No I don't think they shot it down deliberately. I think everything points to one hell if a **** up, over zealous, poorly trained idioms, made worse by support from Russia. It is not just a war zone error, it brakes every bloody international law. And is a criminal case. The fact Russia aren't helping to secure the evidence speaks loudly. "ulrain and Russia should if put differences aside for a few days and both sent their own forces to work as a single task force to secure the area, and invite an international body into investigate. Boeing themself and some neutral country to oversee.

But that doesn't matter, it's you posting that all the west governments are saying it was deliberate, but I've seen nothing off the sort,

 

[[TW]Fox]

Exactly....

The point is they didn't do it on purpose, which both the Ukraine and US appear to be stating.

There seems to be some tragic misunderstanding at the bottom of this, the rebels declared a no fly zone over them, flight controllers declared a no fly zone to 32,000 feet, not realising the rebels could get to 72,000 feet. Having declared their no fly zone he rebels then shoot down several military planes and then a civilian airliner that flew into the area.

Incompetence and/or a mistake, certainly not deliberate...

Quite but that doesn't make it not outrageous. If I pop into town to shoot birds with an AK47 and accidently shoot somebody its hardly not outrageous because I didnt mean it - my actions were reckless in the first place.

 

[Danny75]

The Spanish air traffic controller who was working at Kiev's airport (Boryspil) alleges that two Ukrainian fighter jets were "escorting" MH17 in the minutes prior to the downing. This is interesting because Ukraine has not mentioned this at all.

This guy should be called as a witness. Also, the Ukrainian authorities need to release all the communications with MH17. Interestingly, Malaysian Airlines has alleged that the pilot requested to be able to fly higher, and he was told to fly lower. By July 8th, the Ukraine authorities declared a No-Fly Zone over that area.

On Monday, Eurocontrol – the body that coordinates all traffic across European airspace – sent out an official note to airmen,known as a Notam, repeating the warning and saying it ‘strongly advises’ avoiding the airspace.

But many carriers continued to use the route because it was shorter and therefore cheaper.

On July 8, the State Aviation Administration of Ukraine closed its airspace to civilian aircraft after rebels shot a military transport aircraft that was flying over 20,000 feet.
The restriction warned commercial aircraft against using Ukrainian airspace.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kraine-near-Russian-border.html#ixzz37uyTko2O

Furthermore, Russia would do well to immediately hand over the black boxes to an impartial country, if they are indeed delivered to them.

 

[scorza]

The Spanish air traffic controller who was working at Kiev's airport (Boryspil) alleges that two Ukrainian fighter jets were "escorting" MH17 in the minutes prior to the downing. This is interesting because Ukraine has not mentioned this at all.

This guy should be called as a witness. Also, the Ukrainian authorities need to release all the communications with MH17. Interestingly, Malaysian Airlines has alleged that the pilot requested to be able to fly higher, and he was told to fly lower. By July 8th, the Ukraine authorities declared a No-Fly Zone over that area.

Debunking the myth of 'Carlos', the Spanish air traffic controller

All you really needed to know to confirm he's a fake:

He's been quoted quite a bit on RT

 

[shauncr91]

If there were two fighter jets escorting the plane then it would make sense, there was a weapons expert on the BBC yesterday who said that if the BUK is fired using it's thermal guidance and there are multiple targets in the area the missile could potentially latch onto the largest/hottest object.

 

[Danny75]

Debunking the myth of 'Carlos', the Spanish air traffic controller

All you really needed to know to confirm he's a fake:

I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

 

[Xordium]

Quite but that doesn't make it outrageous. If I pop into town to shoot birds with an AK47 and accidently shoot somebody its hardly not outrageous because I didnt mean it - my actions were reckless in the first place.

To move your argument on into a fairer comparison if you lived in a conflict zone and fired that AK-47 at someone who you believed was an enemy combatant but it turned out to be a civilian then you would most likely have broken your rules of engagement (as a Nato forces member). However, I doubt very much the rebels have such rules and therefore it is probably daft expect them to hold to our standards. By their standards this is most likely not a disaster other than in the PR department.

I think there are numerous reasons this incident occurred and it would be wrong to not look at all the contributory factors and/or to apportion blame solely on one party.

I also note the US are very much presenting this as an European problem. They most likely don't want to have to face facts they still haven't apologised for when they did it.

 

[scorza]

I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

He doesn't exist so he won't be called as a witness (OMG conspiracy!). He's a creation of a pro-Russian social network propaganda outfit designed to create an element of doubt in the minds of the gullible about who bears responsibility for this awful event.