Boeing 777 shot down

[Amp34]

No I don't think they shot it down deliberately. I think everything points to one hell if a **** up, over zealous, poorly trained idioms, made worse by support from Russia. It is not just a war zone error, it brakes every bloody international law. And is a criminal case. The fact Russia aren't helping to secure the evidence speaks loudly. "ulrain and Russia should if put differences aside for a few days and both sent their own forces to work as a single task force to secure the area, and invite an international body into investigate. Boeing themself and some neutral country to oversee.

But that doesn't matter, it's you posting that all the west governments are saying it was deliberate, but I've seen nothing off the sort,

I agree, an international task force looking at the evidence would be a good idea, and a shame that it isn't happening. Part of that may be due to the fact the Russian government don't have quite as much control on the rebels as we think, or because Russia and the rebels are trying to hide things at the crash site, which seem a little pointless considering both sides are saying it was shot down by a Bak missile and both sides are using the same hardware.

Unfortunately this is all being used as a political tool even before any of the evidence or investigation has actually occurred.

Quite but that doesn't make it outrageous. If I pop into town to shoot birds with an AK47 and accidently shoot somebody its hardly not outrageous because I didnt mean it - my actions were reckless in the first place.

That's very different circumstances and you know it. This is civil war in one part of the country where armed rebels are fighting the government military. In the same way rebels in Syria or soldiers in Israel shooting civilians is not the same.

This should be investigated and if found to be a deliberate act the perpetrators should be brought to justice, much like any other situation like this. My personal preference would be to start with the historic cases first...

 

[Amp34]

I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

Has he been interviewed or mentioned by any reputable western news outlet yet?

I'm sure there would be plenty of mention in spanish newspapers for a start if this was actually true.

 

[Danny75]

He doesn't exist so he won't be called as a witness (OMG conspiracy!). He's a creation of a pro-Russian social network propaganda outfit designed to create an element of doubt in the minds of the gullible about who bears responsibility for this awful event.

The man exists and has appeared in video interviews speaking in Spanish (with a very Spanish accent, I might add), so he can be called as a witness. The only question is if he is who he says he is. There shouldn't be a problem with this man being summoned as a witness, to confirm his identity (and take his statements into account) or expose him as a fake.

 

[Zethor]

I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

This goes to show how powerful propaganda can be, especially when its targets are susceptible to it.

Danny,
There is no Spanish air controller.
There are no Ukrainian fighter jets.
The rebel leader boasted they shot down the plane.
The rebels had the weapons (they admitted it in June and recent pictures/videos show it).
The rebels reported the event to the Russian Intelligence.

Seriously, what more proof do you need?! The only question is, did they do it on purpose or was it an accident? The latter is probably true.

 

[Danny75]

Has he been interviewed or mentioned by any reputable western news outlet yet?

Not interviewed on Western media. The video I watched yesterday was on "RT en Espanol". I was looking for it again and managed to find it:

I'm sure there would be plenty of mention in spanish newspapers for a start if this was actually true.

Well the guy is real. His identity is in question. So, like I keep saying, call him as a witness and establish the truth one way or another. If he's a fake, I'd be happy for him to be shamed as one.

 

[TJM]

That could be any Spanish man or a man capable of putting on a Spanish accent.

He is referred to only as 'Carlos' and his face is blurred. Why? There is no benefit to protecting his identify - the only people who would have cause to silence him (if his story is true, which it isn't) would be the Ukrainian authorities and they would presumably know everything about him already given that they supposedly employed him.

 

[OhEsEcks]

The vice video from the crash site is brutal. All I could think was "look what you've done".

 

[RoboCod]

If there were two fighter jets escorting the plane then it would make sense, there was a weapons expert on the BBC yesterday who said that if the BUK is fired using it's thermal guidance and there are multiple targets in the area the missile could potentially latch onto the largest/hottest object.

Sounds like BS seeing as the missiles are semi-active guided by the FIREDOME RADAR and not thermal homing.

 

[Zethor]

'Carlos' is obviously on his way to Russia, seeking asylum. That's why his face is blurred! The Ukrainians waited until the plane was in the rebel area and then shot it down, there's no doubt about it. Just like that time Sterve Erwin died by "accident", despite footage showing a manta ray meeting with several crocodiles the day before the "accident".

 

[TJM]

That stingray conveniently died in a car crash a few weeks later...

 

[Danny75]

This goes to show how powerful propaganda can be, especially when its targets are susceptible to it.

It cuts both ways.

In no way am I believing his account. But the man is there (he's real), and his account is there.

Danny,
There is no Spanish air controller.

Whether he is or not, the man exists and can be called as a witness.

There are no Ukrainian fighter jets.

Haven't several military aircraft been downed over eastern Ukraine recently? And haven't they bombed civilian targets?

The rebel leader boasted they shot down the plane.

A plane. Which plane was he referring to, and when did it happen? Do you know for a fact that they weren't discussing the downing of another plane recently, and Ukraine isn't using this prior intercept as propaganda? I don't know this yet.

The rebels had the weapons (they admitted it in June and recent pictures/videos show it).

Yes. So does Ukraine.

The rebels reported the event to the Russian Intelligence.

If the recording is real and hasn't been tampered with, it indicates the reporting of "an event" (but which?). Furthermore, rebel leaders have stated both men in the recording are real but that both live and fight in east Ukraine.

Seriously, what more proof do you need?!

Simply - more. You surely understand this is a gift to Kiev, and to certain interests in Washington demanding that Europe do more (stronger sanctions against Russia etc), right? Now this doesn't mean they did it, but it should be borne in mind till more facts come in.

The only question is, did they do it on purpose or was it an accident? The latter is probably true.

I'd tend to agree with you there. But am still open-minded about other possibilities.

 

[Amp34]

Not interviewed on Western media. The video I watched yesterday was on "RT en Espanol". I was looking for it again and managed to find it:

Well the guy is real. His identity is in question. So, like I keep saying, call him as a witness and establish the truth one way or another. If he's a fake, I'd be happy for him to be shamed as one.

Any yet no Spanish, or other western news outlet at that, has interviewed him...?

 

[Boycey0211]

Any yet no Spanish, or other western news outlet at that, has interviewed him...?

Or proved his existence....

 

[Dis86]

It cuts both ways.

In no way am I believing his account. But the man is there (he's real), and his account is there.




Whether he is or not, the man exists and can be called as a witness.




Haven't several military aircraft been downed over eastern Ukraine recently? And haven't they bombed civilian targets?




A plane. Which plane was he referring to, and when did it happen? Do you know for a fact that they weren't discussing the downing of another plane recently, and Ukraine isn't using this prior intercept as propaganda? I don't know this yet.




Yes. So does Ukraine.




If the recording is real and hasn't been tampered with, it indicates the reporting of "an event" (but which?). Furthermore, rebel leaders have stated both men in the recording are real but that both live and fight in east Ukraine.




Simply - more. You surely understand this is a gift to Kiev, and to certain interests in Washington demanding that Europe do more (stronger sanctions against Russia etc), right? Now this doesn't mean they did it, but it should be borne in mind till more facts come in.




I'd tend to agree with you there. But am still open-minded about other possibilities.

Wow...

All aircraft downed over Ukraine recently (until this massive mess) have been Ukrainian military aircraft. Ukraine have not shot anything down.

The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

The call between the rebels and Russian intelligence took place immediately after the downing of MH17. It could only have been referring to MH17. The call also continues with information of dead civilians and has mention of the insignias on the wings. Thus confirming it's about MH17.

 

[jsmoke]

They will get away with this on grounds of war scenario(diminished responsibility). Sad but true(Metallica?)

 

[[TW]Fox]

The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

These threads are always so full of random misinformation. Just where did you get that from? Why are you expressing it as fact in this thread when 34 seconds research would tell you that the Ukraine use SU-27's which have a service ceiling of 62,000 feet - almost TWICE the altitude of the Boeing 777.

I'm not at all suggesting they were involved here, just pointing out how annoying it is to have people posting made up 'facts'.

 

[Dis86]

These threads are always so full of random misinformation. Just where did you get that from? Why are you expressing it as fact in this thread when 34 seconds research would tell you that the Ukraine use SU-27's which have a service ceiling of 62,000 feet - almost TWICE the altitude of the Boeing 777.

I'm not at all suggesting they were involved here, just pointing out how annoying it is to have people posting made up 'facts'.

True, but the main aircraft deployed in that region are the SU-25. Op ceiling on those is only about 18k feet. The SU-27 is mostly used as an air-to-air fighter. The rebels have no aircraft thus the aircraft escorting would be multi-role SU-25s.

 

[Nitefly]

There was no plane at all, a source has confirmed.

 

[Danny75]

All aircraft downed over Ukraine recently (until this massive mess) have been Ukrainian military aircraft. Ukraine have not shot anything down.

Well, last time was 2001 when they accidentally shot down a passenger plane with 78 people onboard and denied it at first.

However, they do have BUKs and types of SAMs in the area, and had recently been complaining of Russian jets flying into Ukrainian territory.

The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

Do you have a source for that, please?

The call between the rebels and Russian intelligence took place immediately after the downing of MH17. It could only have been referring to MH17. The call also continues with information of dead civilians and has mention of the insignias on the wings. Thus confirming it's about MH17.

Let's be clear about what you just described. It's not just one call, it's a total of three allegedly intercepted calls, and only with the three edited together do we arrive at that full description. Do we know that all three calls took place the same day, or do we choose to believe it? It's evidence, no doubt. But they could be taking responsibility for downing a military plane in one call, and then simply describing the MH17 crash in the other calls made on other days, for all we know right now.

 

[loltim]

Just saw a bit of the Vice video. I don't understand why they're showing dead bodies. What is wrong with them?