Boeing 777 shot down

Amp34 · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:24

Danny75 said:
I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

Has he been interviewed or mentioned by any reputable western news outlet yet?

I'm sure there would be plenty of mention in spanish newspapers for a start if this was actually true.

Danny75 · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:35

scorza said:
He doesn't exist so he won't be called as a witness (OMG conspiracy!). He's a creation of a pro-Russian social network propaganda outfit designed to create an element of doubt in the minds of the gullible about who bears responsibility for this awful event.

The man exists and has appeared in video interviews speaking in Spanish (with a very Spanish accent, I might add), so he can be called as a witness. The only question is if he is who he says he is. There shouldn't be a problem with this man being summoned as a witness, to confirm his identity (and take his statements into account) or expose him as a fake.

Zethor · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:36

Danny75 said:
I'd rather he was called as a witness, given his statements, and it be established for a fact (or not), rather than let a non-judicial cursory inquiry tell us he's "fake".

This goes to show how powerful propaganda can be, especially when its targets are susceptible to it.

Danny,
There is no Spanish air controller.
There are no Ukrainian fighter jets.
The rebel leader boasted they shot down the plane.
The rebels had the weapons (they admitted it in June and recent pictures/videos show it).
The rebels reported the event to the Russian Intelligence.

Seriously, what more proof do you need?! The only question is, did they do it on purpose or was it an accident? The latter is probably true.

Danny75 · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:42

Amp34 said:
Has he been interviewed or mentioned by any reputable western news outlet yet?

Not interviewed on Western media. The video I watched yesterday was on "RT en Espanol". I was looking for it again and managed to find it:

Amp34 said:
I'm sure there would be plenty of mention in spanish newspapers for a start if this was actually true.

Well the guy is real. His identity is in question. So, like I keep saying, call him as a witness and establish the truth one way or another. If he's a fake, I'd be happy for him to be shamed as one.

TJM · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:46

That could be any Spanish man or a man capable of putting on a Spanish accent.

He is referred to only as 'Carlos' and his face is blurred. Why? There is no benefit to protecting his identify - the only people who would have cause to silence him (if his story is true, which it isn't) would be the Ukrainian authorities and they would presumably know everything about him already given that they supposedly employed him.

OhEsEcks · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:51

The vice video from the crash site is brutal. All I could think was "look what you've done".

RoboCod · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:51

shauncr91 said:
If there were two fighter jets escorting the plane then it would make sense, there was a weapons expert on the BBC yesterday who said that if the BUK is fired using it's thermal guidance and there are multiple targets in the area the missile could potentially latch onto the largest/hottest object.

Sounds like BS seeing as the missiles are semi-active guided by the FIREDOME RADAR and not thermal homing.

Zethor · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:52

'Carlos' is obviously on his way to Russia, seeking asylum. That's why his face is blurred! The Ukrainians waited until the plane was in the rebel area and then shot it down, there's no doubt about it. Just like that time Sterve Erwin died by "accident", despite footage showing a manta ray meeting with several crocodiles the day before the "accident". :rolleyes:

TJM · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:54

That stingray conveniently died in a car crash a few weeks later...

Danny75 · 19 Jul 2014 at 14:59

Zethor said:
This goes to show how powerful propaganda can be, especially when its targets are susceptible to it.

It cuts both ways.

In no way am I believing his account. But the man is there (he's real), and his account is there.

Zethor said:
Danny,
There is no Spanish air controller.

Whether he is or not, the man exists and can be called as a witness.

Zethor said:
There are no Ukrainian fighter jets.

Haven't several military aircraft been downed over eastern Ukraine recently? And haven't they bombed civilian targets?

Zethor said:
The rebel leader boasted they shot down the plane.

A plane. Which plane was he referring to, and when did it happen? Do you know for a fact that they weren't discussing the downing of another plane recently, and Ukraine isn't using this prior intercept as propaganda? I don't know this yet.

Zethor said:
The rebels had the weapons (they admitted it in June and recent pictures/videos show it).

Yes. So does Ukraine.

Zethor said:
The rebels reported the event to the Russian Intelligence.

If the recording is real and hasn't been tampered with, it indicates the reporting of "an event" (but which?). Furthermore, rebel leaders have stated both men in the recording are real but that both live and fight in east Ukraine.

Zethor said:
Seriously, what more proof do you need?!

Simply - more. You surely understand this is a gift to Kiev, and to certain interests in Washington demanding that Europe do more (stronger sanctions against Russia etc), right? Now this doesn't mean they did it, but it should be borne in mind till more facts come in.

Zethor said:
The only question is, did they do it on purpose or was it an accident? The latter is probably true.

I'd tend to agree with you there. But am still open-minded about other possibilities.

Amp34 · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:07

Danny75 said:
Not interviewed on Western media. The video I watched yesterday was on "RT en Espanol". I was looking for it again and managed to find it:

Well the guy is real. His identity is in question. So, like I keep saying, call him as a witness and establish the truth one way or another. If he's a fake, I'd be happy for him to be shamed as one.

Any yet no Spanish, or other western news outlet at that, has interviewed him...?

Boycey0211 · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:10

Amp34 said:
Any yet no Spanish, or other western news outlet at that, has interviewed him...?

Or proved his existence....

Dis86 · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:15

Danny75 said:
It cuts both ways.

In no way am I believing his account. But the man is there (he's real), and his account is there.

Whether he is or not, the man exists and can be called as a witness.

Haven't several military aircraft been downed over eastern Ukraine recently? And haven't they bombed civilian targets?

A plane. Which plane was he referring to, and when did it happen? Do you know for a fact that they weren't discussing the downing of another plane recently, and Ukraine isn't using this prior intercept as propaganda? I don't know this yet.

Yes. So does Ukraine.

If the recording is real and hasn't been tampered with, it indicates the reporting of "an event" (but which?). Furthermore, rebel leaders have stated both men in the recording are real but that both live and fight in east Ukraine.

Simply - more. You surely understand this is a gift to Kiev, and to certain interests in Washington demanding that Europe do more (stronger sanctions against Russia etc), right? Now this doesn't mean they did it, but it should be borne in mind till more facts come in.

I'd tend to agree with you there. But am still open-minded about other possibilities.

Wow...

All aircraft downed over Ukraine recently (until this massive mess) have been Ukrainian military aircraft. Ukraine have not shot anything down.

The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

The call between the rebels and Russian intelligence took place immediately after the downing of MH17. It could only have been referring to MH17. The call also continues with information of dead civilians and has mention of the insignias on the wings. Thus confirming it's about MH17.

jsmoke · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:20

They will get away with this on grounds of war scenario(diminished responsibility). Sad but true(Metallica?)

[TW]Fox · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:21

Dis86 said:
The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

These threads are always so full of random misinformation. Just where did you get that from? Why are you expressing it as fact in this thread when 34 seconds research would tell you that the Ukraine use SU-27's which have a service ceiling of 62,000 feet - almost TWICE the altitude of the Boeing 777.

I'm not at all suggesting they were involved here, just pointing out how annoying it is to have people posting made up 'facts'.

Dis86 · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:30

[TW]Fox;26630607 said:
These threads are always so full of random misinformation. Just where did you get that from? Why are you expressing it as fact in this thread when 34 seconds research would tell you that the Ukraine use SU-27's which have a service ceiling of 62,000 feet - almost TWICE the altitude of the Boeing 777.

I'm not at all suggesting they were involved here, just pointing out how annoying it is to have people posting made up 'facts'.

True, but the main aircraft deployed in that region are the SU-25. Op ceiling on those is only about 18k feet. The SU-27 is mostly used as an air-to-air fighter. The rebels have no aircraft thus the aircraft escorting would be multi-role SU-25s.

Nitefly · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:31

There was no plane at all, a source has confirmed.

Danny75 · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:35

Dis86 said:
All aircraft downed over Ukraine recently (until this massive mess) have been Ukrainian military aircraft. Ukraine have not shot anything down.

Well, last time was 2001 when they accidentally shot down a passenger plane with 78 people onboard and denied it at first.

However, they do have BUKs and types of SAMs in the area, and had recently been complaining of Russian jets flying into Ukrainian territory.

Dis86 said:
The altitude that MH17 was flying at is way above the ceiling of the jets possessed by Ukraine so they could not have been escorting it.

Do you have a source for that, please?

Dis86 said:
The call between the rebels and Russian intelligence took place immediately after the downing of MH17. It could only have been referring to MH17. The call also continues with information of dead civilians and has mention of the insignias on the wings. Thus confirming it's about MH17.

Let's be clear about what you just described. It's not just one call, it's a total of three allegedly intercepted calls, and only with the three edited together do we arrive at that full description. Do we know that all three calls took place the same day, or do we choose to believe it? It's evidence, no doubt. But they could be taking responsibility for downing a military plane in one call, and then simply describing the MH17 crash in the other calls made on other days, for all we know right now.

loltim · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:39

Just saw a bit of the Vice video. I don't understand why they're showing dead bodies. What is wrong with them? :confused:

olivier renault · 19 Jul 2014 at 15:41

loltim said:
Just saw a bit of the Vice video. I don't understand why they're showing dead bodies. What is wrong with them?

Rubbernecking vultures. Plenty around.

And no, I won't watch this video. How about you?