Boeing 777 shot down

Tbh though why would anyone care about hiding the black boxes, IIRC they are housed in the tail of a 777? so as that came off first and 777's doing have missile lock warnings they will have no useful info apart from the fact everything was going fine until data/voice recording stopped...

Because crucially it rules out any failure with the aircraft. Yes we are certain it came down with a missile, but this will add further proof, that in this difficult case where blame is being passed around.

I'm sure there is also plenty of other information that can be determined by experts, such as as the exact position it was at and what the true radius is likely to be for debris. Plus whether the pilots had any idea at all, or whether it struck part of the plane before destroying the rest of it etc. Perhaps the missile also shows up on their radar? I don't know much about that, so its just an assumption.
 
Lol, looks like the Kiev authorities have decided to use this situation to their advantage and launch a fresh assault on the Donetsk People's Republic, tanks/etc rolling in and shells falling in civilian areas. Can't blame them tbh as the separatists can't secure the crash site and their border will all their forces at once so this is a good opportunity for Kiev.

Ironically they have taken a page out of Putin's book, apparently it's not the Ukrainian army advancing, it's "self-organised" pro-Ukrainian groups XD

ukraine might as well do what israel are doing now it's not like russia is likely to do anything after that passenger jet went down
 
I think a full picture is beginning to take shape. The rebels received complex weaponry and qualified operators to handle them from Russia. It is not clear if a Russian Buk was used for the attack but it's likely considering the pictures showing a Buk exiting Ukraine. It is also likely that Russian citizens, the qualified operators, were the ones that "pulled the trigger", under the orders of the rebel leader Igor Bezler (another Russian citizen), also known as "Bes" ("Demon").

In conclusion, it is extremely unlikely that the ones who carried out the attack or the one who ordered it will be prosecuted as they are Russian citizens. Sooner or later, the Russians will accept the mountain of evidence that's building against the rebels and they will blame them, along with the rest of the world but only after most of the Russians who have been fighting in the conflict are back home safe and sound.

Putin didn't order the attack, this tragedy probably ruined any plans he had for Eastern Ukraine. However, there's plenty of blood on his hands and if the EU and the US don't take drastic measures now, that will be a signal for him that he can keep pushing and testing the boundaries of what's unacceptable.
 
Because crucially it rules out any failure with the aircraft.

I wasn't questioning why anyone would want them, I was questioning why anyone would want to hide them, as like you say the only thing they could tell us is if the was a failure with the aircraft (not likely) in which case the only party that would care about hiding them would be Malaysian Airlines lol.
 
I think a full picture is beginning to take shape.

Doubtful but continue :P


The rebels received complex weaponry and qualified operators to handle them from Russia.

Despite already possessing both? (they captured some in June and this is USSR era weaponry, like experts have said a lot of them were in the Soviet army so the will have been some of them trained to use a Buk, plus it only requires basic training operate anyway).


It is not clear if a Russian Buk was used for the attack but it's likely considering the pictures showing a Buk exiting Ukraine.

Playing devils advocate, all I have seen are pictures of a Buk somewhere sometime, and no pictures good enough to show Ukrainian/Russian markings.


Putin didn't order the attack, this tragedy probably ruined any plans he had for Eastern Ukraine. However, there's plenty of blood on his hands and if the EU and the US don't take drastic measures now, that will be a signal for him that he can keep pushing and testing the boundaries of what's unacceptable.

The EU/US/Kiev have just as much blood on their hands as all parties perpetuated the situation that lead to this, I.E if Kiev hadn't violated the ceasefire back in June and attacked the rebels this would never have happened.



Lol, actually they completely ignored the MH17 crash as fans expected, classic Daily Fail...
 
I wasn't questioning why anyone would want them, I was questioning why anyone would want to hide them, as like you say the only thing they could tell us is if the was a failure with the aircraft (not likely) in which case the only party that would care about hiding them would be Malaysian Airlines lol.

Well the only reasonable assumptions one can take is that the Pro-Russian Rebels think trying to hide evidence is a good idea, despite the fact that its fruitless at this stage as the eyes of the world are already on them. It then only incriminates them further.
 
Despite already possessing both? (they captured some in June and this is USSR era weaponry, like experts have said a lot of them were in the Soviet army so the will have been some of them trained to use a Buk, plus it only requires basic training operate anyway).

There are recordings released by the Ukrainian Counter Intelligence in which the rebels discuss the arrival of the "gifts" and their operators from Russia. One of the recordings even identifies the group responsible and their leader - all Russians.


Playing devils advocate, all I have seen are pictures of a Buk somewhere sometime, and no pictures good enough to show Ukrainian/Russian markings.

The rebels are saying they don't have such weapons. If they don't have that Buk and the Ukrainian military doesn't have it, there's only one other option: Russia. The Russians wouldn't have approved the border crossing if it weren't theirs.


The EU/US/Kiev have just as much blood on their hands as all parties perpetuated the situation that lead to this, I.E if Kiev hadn't violated the ceasefire back in June and attacked the rebels this would never have happened.

Did you just say the EU, US and Kiev are responsible for this tragedy? How did these parties perpetuate anything? What were they supposed to do? "Oh, ok Russia, you took Crimeea, here's Eastern Ukraine too while you're at it, cheerio ol' chap!". Quite faulty logic here, you may want to put more thought into your argument. The Dutch are in the EU, why don't you write the parents a letter explaining how they are responsible for their kids' deaths?

Back in the sane world, it's obvious for anyone with half a brain that there are three responsible "parties" here:
- the ones who pulled the trigger - rebel operators
- the one who gave the order - rebel leader
- the ones who support the rebels - the Russian leadership
 
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Lol, looks like the Kiev authorities have decided to use this situation to their advantage and launch a fresh assault on the Donetsk People's Republic, tanks/etc rolling in and shells falling in civilian areas. Can't blame them tbh as the separatists can't secure the crash site and their border will all their forces at once so this is a good opportunity for Kiev.

Ironically they have taken a page out of Putin's book, apparently it's not the Ukrainian army advancing, it's "self-organised" pro-Ukrainian groups XD

And they (Ukraine) get to complain that the rebels are holding back the international accident investigators... The rebels say they are allowing them in, and haven't actually stopped then (different to the observers) but the investigators haven't come due to security fears and it being an active war zone.
 
I think a full picture is beginning to take shape. The rebels received complex weaponry and qualified operators to handle them from Russia. It is not clear if a Russian Buk was used for the attack but it's likely considering the pictures showing a Buk exiting Ukraine. It is also likely that Russian citizens, the qualified operators, were the ones that "pulled the trigger", under the orders of the rebel leader Igor Bezler (another Russian citizen), also known as "Bes" ("Demon").

In conclusion, it is extremely unlikely that the ones who carried out the attack or the one who ordered it will be prosecuted as they are Russian citizens. Sooner or later, the Russians will accept the mountain of evidence that's building against the rebels and they will blame them, along with the rest of the world but only after most of the Russians who have been fighting in the conflict are back home safe and sound.

Putin didn't order the attack, this tragedy probably ruined any plans he had for Eastern Ukraine. However, there's plenty of blood on his hands and if the EU and the US don't take drastic measures now, that will be a signal for him that he can keep pushing and testing the boundaries of what's unacceptable.

I'd agree with most of that but I would add that we don't know whether the hardware and men were authorised by the Russian government or are due to pro seperatist sympathies by someone in charge of a military base/military warehouse.

I'd also question your phrase "under the orders of". Are you suggesting that the leader told them to fire specifically or just to shoot Ukrainian planes with it? The latter sounds reasonable but doesn't make him to blame for this, shooting down opposition planes in a war zone is perfectly acceptable... We also have to remember that the rebels thought the area was a no fly zone for civilian aircraft, according to both the recordings released by the Ukrainian government and by statements from the rebels themselves.
 
It's not all bad:

Harriet Salem, journalist in Donetsk tweets: At #MH17 crash site Dutch forensic expert "impressed" with recovery operation & workers given the size, weather & circumstances #Ukraine

Hopefully this will start the change of attitudes!

and this guy should just STFU

Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair says Russia's President Putin must "take responsibility" for the downing of Flight MH17 and "help deal with" the aftermath.
 
The rebels are saying they don't have such weapons. If they don't have that Buk and the Ukrainian military doesn't have it, there's only one other option: Russia.

Or one of them is lying...


Did you just say the EU, US and Kiev are responsible for this tragedy?

No I said they were also to blame, there's an old saying "guns don't kill people, people do" and many people made decisions that lead to this event.

Would this have happened if somebody hadn't launched a missile? - No
Would this have happened if MA hadn't routed a flight over a war zone to save money? - No
Would this have happened if Ukraine hadn't kept it's airspace open during a civil war in order to make money? - No
Was that wise considering they lost control of Buks to separatists back in June and have been bombing them? - No
Would this have happened if Kiev hadn't violated the ceasefire months ago and resumed actions against the east? - No
Would this have happened if Russia and the EU hadn't been playing chess with Ukraine - No

Many many hands have blood on them not just the one that pushed a button.


Russian defence ministry say did not supply any weapons, Ukrainian jet close to 777 , US satellite overhead.

Any source to this?
 
Russian defence ministry say did not supply any weapons, Ukrainian jet close to 777 , US satellite overhead.

Thanks for the RT news feed. Other 'news' from there:
- Putin's plane was targetted
- Flight MH17 was replaced by the missing flight MH370
- Some of the bodies had been dead for days when the plane crashed
- Some of the passports looked brand new, which suggested they were placed after the crash
- the rebels had no weapons capable of taking down the plane.

The list continues to grow daily..
 
Thanks for the RT news feed. Other 'news' from there:

Yeah the idea that the was a Ukrainian jet nearby which could have shot the airliner down is just stupid, no idea why they would say that nonsense. If they wanted a false flag (I don't believe they did ofc, just saying if they did) then MH17 was in range of two of their S200 batteries and three Buks, why send a plane lol.
 
Thanks for the RT news feed. Other 'news' from there:
- Putin's plane was targetted
- Flight MH17 was replaced by the missing flight MH370
- Some of the bodies had been dead for days when the plane crashed
- Some of the passports looked brand new, which suggested they were placed after the crash
- the rebels had no weapons capable of taking down the plane.

The list continues to grow daily..

You forgot "the bodies were drained of blood"
 
Surprised nobody has questioned how well intact some of the bodies seemed to be considering they fell 30,000 feet.

I guess it's to do with terminal velocity and the way in which they landed?
 
Looks like Russia just called America's bluff:

Another officer, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov, also challenged the United States should produce any satellite images it may have to support its assertions that there had been a missile launch by the rebels.

This will be interesting /popcorn
 
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