Boeing 777 shot down

[Zethor]

There's plenty of concrete evidence and all of it points towards the rebels. Unless you can show this evidence was misinterpreted or that other pieces of evidence exist (and everyone is magically ignoring them), there's a high degree of certainity that it was the rebels who brought the plane down.

The Russians have been avoiding the hard truth for decades now. They thought Communism was an Utopia or that Stalin was a saviour. Now they think Putin is one and they dream of a new Great Russia. The thing about delusions is, sooner or later, you will face the truth and the longer you wait, the harder it is to handle it. You'd think that something like the fall of USSR would be a wake up call.. Nope, not in Russia, they're going back where they started at full speed.

 

[TJM]

I love the 'Ukraine thought it was Putin's plane' line. So Ukraine was trying to assassinate the leader of its much larger and more powerful neighbour? Why?

 

[ubersonic]

There's plenty of concrete evidence and all of it points towards the rebels.

The only concrete evidence so far is that a plane has crashed (a missile is suspected), and that two sides in an ongoing civil war both had such missiles deployed in the area.

 

[arknor]

The only concrete evidence so far is that a plane has crashed (a missile is suspected), and that two sides in an ongoing civil war both had such missiles deployed in the area.

and why is this?

because the rebels are keeping any evidence and not letting monitors in to the crash site for days or handing over the black boxes.

if they are innocent they should have accepted a ceasefire under any terms and allowed experts in on day 1

 

[ubersonic]

and why is this?

because the rebels are keeping any evidence and not letting monitors in to the crash site for days or handing over the black boxes.

if they are innocent they should have accepted a ceasefire under any terms and allowed experts in on day 1

This is the fourth day since the crash and already Dutch investigators are on the scene (and complementary of the job the rebels have done in a difficult situation) which is very good for a war zone (compared to previous accident investigations in similar situations).

They accepted a ceasefire in June, the Kiev leader used it as an opportunity to regroup his forces and attack them full out.

 

[scorza]

The only concrete evidence so far is that a plane has crashed (a missile is suspected), and that two sides in an ongoing civil war both had such missiles deployed in the area.

And now you know why it's so important for Russia/pro-Russian rebels to get that Buk missile launcher back into Russia ASAP.

 

[Tefal]

No. They were Russian troops pretending to be sepratists. Sepratists don't have and cannot use such military hardware.

so why did a professional Russian military unit deliberately shoot down a civilian airliner to frame the separatists?

 

[thep02]

Obama says it's the Russians so it must be someone else, that pos wouldn't know the truth if it bit his ass.

 

[gettothechopper]

This is the fourth day since the crash and already Dutch investigators are on the scene (and complementary of the job the rebels have done in a difficult situation) which is very good for a war zone (compared to previous accident investigations in similar situations).

That not very good

its Ukraine not the moon
normally investigators would be there a few hours later (Wednesday evening?)
and proper security would ensure the crime scene is not tampered with (rather than dead people looted and evidence possibly removed)

it may be a civil war but they are still human beings and its inevitable that you are going to have to let them in, its not like they are just going to forget about it - also with nothing to hide if they didn't shoot it down themselves?

Obama says it's the Russians so it must be someone else, that pos wouldn't know the truth if it bit his ass.

LOL this is what I said before - some people in here just refuse to believe anything is true because they would rather buy into the conspiracy nonsense than accept what the heads of our countries say. One minute people are angry about how good America is at spying - a week later they are useless and dont have a clue?! it cant be both

 

[ubersonic]

That not very good

its Ukraine not the moon
normally investigators would be there a few hours later (Wednesday evening?)
and proper security would ensure the crime scene is not tampered with (rather than dead people looted and evidence possibly removed)

No offence but you don't seem to know much about air crash investigations, if this had been a G8 or even a G20 country you would be right but it isn't and all things considered this is nowhere near some of the worst case scenarios that have been seen over the years.

Standard practice in this situation is to use part of the investigation budget to offer cash rewards for items returned, with extra bonuses for important parts. The fact that the is a standard practice for when things get looted should tell you how often it occurs...

 

[MoRT489]

It could also have been the Aliens, Bigfoot or Jesus. In fact, MoRT, considering the connection between your name and death, it could've been you too. See where I am going? If you ignore the evidence, anything is possible.

I'm not ignoring anything, you're ignoring the fact that there are two sides to every story and that in fact, as yet, no hard evidence has been presented other than the self-serving rhetoric of politicians and tabloids.

and why is this?

because the rebels are keeping any evidence and not letting monitors in to the crash site for days or handing over the black boxes.

if they are innocent they should have accepted a ceasefire under any terms and allowed experts in on day 1

Actually they have let the inspectors quite quickly considering that it's a warzone. Only this afternoon did Poroshenko actually demand a ceasefire, but unfortunately due to him breaking the last one I doubt the rebels (or the investigators tbf) take much comfort from that!

 

[MoRT489]

The Russians have been avoiding the hard truth for decades now. They thought Communism was an Utopia or that Stalin was a saviour. Now they think Putin is one and they dream of a new Great Russia. The thing about delusions is, sooner or later, you will face the truth and the longer you wait, the harder it is to handle it. You'd think that something like the fall of USSR would be a wake up call.. Nope, not in Russia, they're going back where they started at full speed.

You've been watching way to many cold war movies. I don't know a single Russian who wants communism, and the majority of middle class, educated Russians do not support Putin in anything other than the actions taken in Crimea and Ukraine (not referring to this latest incident), that should tell you something.

 

[Dis86]

I'm not ignoring anything, you're ignoring the fact that there are two sides to every story and that in fact, as yet, no hard evidence has been presented other than the self-serving rhetoric of politicians and tabloids.



Actually they have let the inspectors quite quickly considering that it's a warzone. Only this afternoon did Poroshenko actually demand a ceasefire, but unfortunately due to him breaking the last one I doubt the rebels (or the investigators tbf) take much comfort from that!

They wouldn't let anyone near it for days.
They were seen by independents to be removing items.
They are now escorting and directing investigators heavily.

That to me reeks of suspicion.

 

[snips86x]

The Malaysia prime minister also said the remains of the dead are being moved by train to Kharkiv and then handed over to international investigators. It's being reported they will go to Amsterdam to the Dutch authorities.

At least the families have some details regarding the deceased! About time!

 

[gettothechopper]

No offence but you don't seem to know much about air crash investigations, if this had been a G8 or even a G20 country you would be right but it isn't and all things considered this is nowhere near some of the worst case scenarios that have been seen over the years.

Standard practice in this situation is to use part of the investigation budget to offer cash rewards for items returned, with extra bonuses for important parts. The fact that the is a standard practice for when things get looted should tell you how often it occurs...

rubbish - when we loose something in Afghanistan we have bodies recovered and investigations investigated within 24 hours of the accident - and thats a proper war

 

[ubersonic]

rubbish - when we loose something in Afghanistan we have bodies recovered and investigations investigated within 24 hours of the accident - and thats a proper war

This isn't military, it's civilian, the civilian investigators work much slower (but more thorough) and have no authority.

 

[Tefal]

rubbish - when we loose something in Afghanistan we have bodies recovered and investigations investigated within 24 hours of the accident - and thats a proper war

yeah cause we can shoot people who try to nick stuff.

 

[Dunks]

rubbish - when we loose something in Afghanistan we have bodies recovered and investigations investigated within 24 hours of the accident - and thats a proper war

Because that's definitely completely undertaken by civilian air crash investigators flown in from outside the country.

Nothing to do with the armed forces at all, right?

 

[LOAM]

The Russians have been avoiding the hard truth for decades now. They thought Communism was an Utopia or that Stalin was a saviour. Now they think Putin is one and they dream of a new Great Russia. The thing about delusions is, sooner or later, you will face the truth and the longer you wait, the harder it is to handle it. You'd think that something like the fall of USSR would be a wake up call.. Nope, not in Russia, they're going back where they started at full speed.

They really didn't think of Stalin as a saviour, they were terrified of his regime. He murdered millions of his own people, some for simply reading a scrap of paper dropped by the Germans or for retreating. Anyone who spoke out, or looked like they might speak out were sent to the gulag along with their families or shot by the NKVD.

 

[scorza]

They really didn't think of Stalin as a saviour, they were terrified of his regime. He murdered millions of his own people, some for simply reading a scrap of paper dropped by the Germans or for retreating. Anyone who spoke out, or looked like they might speak out were sent to the gulag along with their families or shot by the NKVD.

Only the intellectuals, artists, and bourgeois were affected by this - for most of the proletariat they got what they wanted - work. Sure life was tough, but Russia was strong and that's all that matters to them - even today.