Poll: Brazilian Grand Prix 2021, São Paulo - Race 19

[jonneymendoza]

http://www.silverarrows.net/news/toto-wolff-scraps-gentlemens-agreement-with-red-bull/

The Austrian explained that the FIA allowed Red Bull to fix their rear wing at the Mexican Grand Prix without any penalties, but Mercedes was not allowed to do the same in Brazil.

 

[woppy101]

I am actually quite worried by this. Mad Max is now essentially free to run people off the road. Of course he'll do it again. In his mind, why wouldn't he do it again to Hamilton. "Oh Hamilton's waaaay faster at this circuit, neverminds I'll just wait for him to try and overtake and blammo!". It could get really nasty.
I need mroe education on it but didn't Schumacher have all of his points taken off of him for a single incident where he attempted to do exactly what we're talking about - drive his competitor off the road because he already had the points advantage to win the championship.

You can bet your arse the FIA would bottle making that decision

 

[Feek]

I need mroe education on it but didn't Schumacher have all of his points taken off of him for a single incident where he attempted to do exactly what we're talking about - drive his competitor off the road because he already had the points advantage to win the championship.

Yes but because he was second in the championship, nobody cared.

 

[Locky]

Why have we still not seen Maxine's on board?

 

[Armageus]

Why have we still not seen Maxine's on board?

Because there was no racing driver called Maxine racing in the São Paulo Grand Prix?

 

[jaybee]

The problem currently is that Max has got away with it so much, Redbull will appeal any aggressive driving by referring to previous incidents where he got away with it. This is the issue. The president is set. If Hamilton did not yield and basically behaved like Max, they would have crashed even more this season. That's not a way to be allowed to drive. i.e. I'm coming through so move or we crash. Max has constantly driven in this way so much, that I think he has swayed the stewards slightly into thinking this is acceptable. Is it different stewards at every race weekend too? I think the whole stewarding thing and penalty application needs a massive revamp.

The advice to the Merc drivers has to be to try to get 1,2 in quali and pull away out of trouble. Some nice boring races hopefully to finish the season for them. But then a Redbull may divebomb into turn 1!
I think they need to tell Bottas to drive HARD AS NAILS and hold ground even if contact occurs. Do not yield. Allow contact to occur. Hamilton can't do that as he's behind in points.

Something we aren't talking about much is Honda engine. CH managed expectations by claiming they are fine until the end of the season with their current engine, but that may be trying to not show any weakness. Maybe they might need to swap it...

 

[woppy101]

Why have we still not seen Maxine's on board?

Because RB are chucking backhanders galore to the FIA to stop it coming out, If I was merc I would demand to see it and put in an official complaint

 

[Yaayuh!]

FRedbull International Assistance!

AMIRITE?

I jest. It was an okay race, the title fight is the only thing exciting, though. This is going down to the wire but IMO, this is going to be Lewis' 8th Championship win. Just so long as he doesn't burn out that engine in the desert.

 

[RobHu]

This is a major talking point actually. In champs gone by, we have seen this happen because again, they cannot punish based on the outcome so the "act" occurs and any penalty becomes irrelevant instantly. I don't think they have anything in place to stop that happening do they? i.e. Actual championship points reduction to mitigate it? I mean how many would you even take? Any calculation kind of has to take into account the "outcome" which goes against the grain.

If he did this and it was obvious he would in theory be DQ'd from the season, as has happened in the past iirc.

I wonder if Merc will/have already lodged a protest about the lack of penalty for MV during the race, though I'm not sure whether they can actually because it wasn't investigated at the time.

For people wondering about the 'missing' onboard footage; the FIA/FOM don't have instant on demand access to all onboard cameras at all times during the race. The onboard camera director has a certain amount of bandwidth to work with and selects the cameras the main director wants at any particular point in time. Any other footage has to be downloaded off the car which takes some time, I can't remember if they can do it during a session or have to wait until after.

 

[Steampunk]

As mentioned few times, stewards had access to all the technical data which would have given them a lot more details then a camera view. Also not sure how I feel about giving driver a penalty post race after they already decided that no investigation was necessary during the race. For all we know Max eased off in the last few laps, if he had know he could potentially get 5 sec penalty he'd have a chance to do something about it.

New information. As for Verstappen, it's just part of doing something illegal and not quite getting away with it. He shouldn't be a dirty driver if he's going to cry about getting caught when the evidence comes out.

 

[this_is_gav]

Speaking of which, perhaps Max will be looked back on in years to come as another Schumacher. Massively fast, but would cheat to win. I think a lot of drivers grow up to behave in this way as to some extent the line between pushing yourself to win however possible vs fairly is very fine to go far in the sport.

But then you look at Hamilton.... he is the GOAT, yet one of the cleanest driving champions you will ever see so it doesn't need to be this way.

A lot of people forget just how young Verstappen is, relatively speaking. Remember when Hamilton was Verstappen's age he was no angel either. He had a clean year (on the track) in 2007 (less said about the events behind the scenes the better), but in 2008 he and Massa were constantly at each other's heals then in 2009 he and McLaren Sporting Director Dave Ryan colluded over events during the Australian GP, resulting in a disqualification for misleading the stewards - in 2009 he 24 - the same age Verstappen is now.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't think Verstappen will ever be an angel, but he's got a number of years of maturing ahead of him, just as Hamilton has had.

Let's be honest, neither driver is coming off well off the back of how poorly both teams have handled things this year. Constant sniping and complaining throughout this season is damaging all the brands, including those of the drivers. It's like a school playground, with Masi the headteacher.

I was actually pleasantly surprised how well Rosberg spoke fairly when he has been on given his past Schumacher like behaviour to win at any cost.

Yeah, he's been pretty much the only non-biased pundit on British TV this season - C4 are too Red Bull biased and Sky too Mercedes biased. Unexpectedly Rosberg has been a breath of fresh air.

 

[GR63]

A serious penalty for Max now (that could cost him championship) might be a smart move from FIA to stop him ultimately seriously injuring someone in future. Might be short term pain for FIA for long term gain. Max fans will of course disagree

 

[bayo000]

New information. As for Verstappen, it's just part of doing something illegal and not quite getting away with it. He shouldn't be a dirty driver if he's going to cry about getting caught when the evidence comes out.

New information for us fans yes, though doubt it would be any new information for the stewards. And even if it was and they decided to review it now after the race I'd much rather they give the driver either a fine, points on his licence or reprimand then a race penalty considering they made a decision (even if it was a wrong one) during the race. In situation like this where some information is not available during the race they should just say it will be investigated after the race.

 

[jaybee]

It does feel like "they" are scared to enforce penalties at Redbull in particular. If we look purely at this incident, I don't understand why it wasn't even investigated and how they came to that conclusion. Do you think it is because they so quickly re-joined where the time gap stayed fairly close to what it was? I don't feel this is an excuse obviously and it should never be, since this is kind of "forgiving" something as a result of the outcome, which they always said they won't do.
If someone parked their car in the middle of the straight, you'd get a penalty because of what could happen because it's dangerous. It's fairly conflicting in the terminology. Looking at it simply, was it dangerous driving basically. In my opinion yes and should be penalised. He clearly either wanted an accident or to run him off the track to defend.

 

[Steampunk]

New information for us fans yes, though doubt it would be any new information for the stewards. And even if it was and they decided to review it now after the race I'd much rather they give the driver either a fine, points on his licence or reprimand then a race penalty considering they made a decision (even if it was a wrong one) during the race. In situation like this where some information is not available during the race they should just say it will be investigated after the race.

The stewards said they just noted the issue, they didn't investigate it, so why would they have looked at any details at all? Drivers don't care about fines or licence points (has a driver ever been banned from a race for their licence points?), so a fine is the same as getting away with it.

The likes of Verstappen have been doing this a long time, and nothing will change unless he gets punished via his championship points. If the FIA don't do it now, it will be done after he causes a massive crash and maybe someone gets badly hurt or worse. There's no doubt that Verstappen is going to continue driving dirty while he keeps getting away with it.

 

[JRS]

A lot of people forget just how young Verstappen is, relatively speaking. Remember when Hamilton was Verstappen's age he was no angel either. He had a clean year (on the track) in 2007 (less said about the events behind the scenes the better), but in 2008 he and Massa were constantly at each other's heals then in 2009 he and McLaren Sporting Director Dave Ryan colluded over events during the Australian GP, resulting in a disqualification for misleading the stewards - in 2009 he 24 - the same age Verstappen is now.

I've occasionally wondered how Hamilton would be treated by UK F1 fandom, especially on here, if he wasn't British. I reckon Aus '09 would stick in a lot more minds if he wasn't.

Yeah, [Roberg has] been pretty much the only non-biased pundit on British TV this season - C4 are too Red Bull biased and Sky too Mercedes biased. Unexpectedly Rosberg has been a breath of fresh air.

Not difficult to be a breath of fresh air when the room is that stale

 

[bayo000]

The stewards said they just noted the issue, they didn't investigate it, so why would they have looked at any details at all? Drivers don't care about fines or points (has a driver ever been banned from a race for their licence points?), so a fine is the same as getting away with it.

The likes of Verstappen have been doing this a long time, and nothing will change unless he gets punished via his championship points. If the FIA don't do it now, it will be done after he causes a massive crash and maybe someone gets badly hurt or worse. There's no doubt that Verstappen is going to continue driving dirty while he keeps getting away with it.

They must have looked at some information and deemed it sufficient enough not to go any further. I'd like to think they looked at telemetry from both Lewis and Max, found them to be fairly similar and thus let it go though doubt we'll ever find out.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

It's certainly going to be extremely difficult/impossible to pass Max on a corner, in the next few races.

He's proven time and again this season that he will force another driver off which will likely mean DRS passes and/or pit stop overtakes are the only strategies going forward.

 

[Feek]

The likes of Verstappen have been doing this a long time, and nothing will change unless he gets punished via his championship points. If the FIA don't do it now, it will be done after he causes a massive crash and maybe someone gets badly hurt or worse. There's no doubt that Verstappen is going to continue driving dirty while he keeps getting away with it.

The same comment was made after both Silverstone and Monza, nothing's changed yet.

 

[Dup]

Drivers up the front, Senna & MS included, have been making their cars wider and played games like that to gain an advantage for decades. I don't know why it's such a surprise. No driver is squeaky clean when the championship is on the line, it's why we watch it and why we revisit races of old and the drama that unfolded.