British Grand Prix 2011, Silverstone Circuit - Race 9/19

ZG002 · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:20

FrankJH said:
Im not mechanical at all - but couldnt they cool most of it externally ? Yes it would be bulky but wouldnt be included in actual engine developement

They could find a way, But they don't want to be doing that.

I really wish the rest of the teams would just write the season off and go into development mode handing rbr the "victory"
Can't be doing with another spell like MSC had it was boring and I stopped watching.

Won't happen though, I just want to see what the FIA would do to stop them all.

Skeeter · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:21

englishpremier said:
Would you rather that no Renualt engined cars finish another race from now until 2014 when the engine regs open up? If they can't cool the valves by using the throttle and they're not allowed to modify the engine to change the way the engine cools, what are they suppose to do?

I don't know, but I'm fairly sure Renault were aware that this was how their engines work prior to this morning...

The whole last minute, some teams not others, nobody really knowing whats going on situation is more damaging than the actual technicalities of what they are/aren't doing.

FrankJH · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:25

CS||nuTs said:
but then you dont have former McLaren engineers now telling you what they are doing.

so who has defected from you and to where?

Genuinely didnt know sorry mate (although you have still held a decent advantage for some time)

ZG002 · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:27

FrankJH said:
so who has defected from you and to where?

Genuinely didnt know sorry mate (although you have still held a decent advantage for some time)

I read that as, RBR have former McLaren guys telling them where McLaren are heading with development. Could be wrong though :confused:

FrankJH · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:28

ZG002 said:
They could find a way, But they don't want to be doing that.

I really wish the rest of the teams would just write the season off and go into development mode handing rbr the "victory"
Can't be doing with another spell like MSC had it was boring and I stopped watching.

Won't happen though, I just want to see what the FIA would do to stop them all.

All Im saying is that they cant use an excuse to the just suggested one that they cant finish a race because they cant cool their engine how it was designed to be - well they can actually its just not optimal

Sparky · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:29

FrankJH said:
so who has defected from you and to where?

Genuinely didnt know sorry mate (although you have still held a decent advantage for some time)

Nothing stays a secret in F1 for long, the media make sure of that. Want to know what a rival is doing, offer one of their top people a better package. Its how it works in this industry.

englishpremier · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:29

FrankJH said:
Im not mechanical at all - but couldnt they cool most of it externally ? Yes it would be bulky but wouldnt be included in actual engine developement

Running lean i.e lower fuel to air ratio makes engines run hotter. The Renualt engine does not inject fuel then the driver is not on the throttle. Meaning that that the engine is still turning, but is not getting any fuel to help cool the valves. Mercedes do still inject fuel when the driver is off throttle (they have been given dispensation to do this. The only way it seems for renault to inject fuel into the engine when the driver is off throttle, is to run the throttle at a certain percentage. I don't think the valves etc.. can be cooled well enough otherwise without some additional modifications, which aren't allowed.

If we rememeber a few year ago, Renualt were allowed to modify their engine at the end of the season to bring it up to par with Mercedes. No doubt this is when they adapted the engine internals to require applied throttle on the overrun.

Of course i'm by no means an expert so take what i say with a pinch of salt.

FrankJH · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:32

ZG002 said:
I read that as, RBR have former McLaren guys telling them where McLaren are heading with development. Could be wrong though

oohh I read it as RBR lost staff (either to FIA or to McLaren /Ferrari)

Skeeter · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:32

In other news, seems the reason the top teams are at the far end of the pit lane behind the wall is that Bernie swapped the order of the garages around after requests from corporate guests (who are more likely to be in the bigger teams garages) for some privacy from fans in the grandstands.

FrankJH · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:36

englishpremier said:
Running lean i.e lower fuel to air ratio makes engines run hotter. The Renualt engine does not inject fuel then the driver is not on the throttle. Meaning that that the engine is still turning, but is not getting any fuel to help cool the valves. Mercedes do still inject fuel when the driver is off throttle (they have been given dispensation to do this. The only way it seems for renault to inject fuel into the engine when the driver is off throttle, is to run the throttle at a certain percentage. I don't think the valves etc.. can be cooled well enough otherwise without some additional modifications, which aren't allowed.

If we rememeber a few year ago, Renualt were allowed to modify their engine at the end of the season to bring it up to par with Mercedes. No doubt this is when they adapted the engine internals to require applied throttle on the overrun.

Of course i'm by no means an expert so take what i say with a pinch of salt.

If RBR arent going to be allowed to get away with this for 18 months - it surely means some engine mods somewhere are going to have to be allowed

thank you for the explanation though

englishpremier · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:39

Skeeter said:
I don't know, but I'm fairly sure Renault were aware that this was how their engines work prior to this morning...

The whole last minute, some teams not others, nobody really knowing whats going on situation is more damaging than the actual technicalities of what they are/aren't doing.

True, we don't really know if the lobbying was last minute. We only know that the FIA changed the rules at the last minute.

Mercedes lobbied against the rules too, as they run a fired overrun (thus reducing engine braking, and helping with balance) which the FIA also banned. So it's not just Renualt. Both engine manufactures we against this.

This link accurately describes it in detail: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/10-rule-full-analysis/

Skeeter · 9 Jul 2011 at 00:41

Yeah Scarbs writeup is good. Still not convinced that Ferrari and Cosworth would be allowed to develop their engines within the current freeze, so at the least its an advantage that Renault and Merc engines will have, and the others wont.

Dr. Pain · 9 Jul 2011 at 05:21

Wow, F1 really is an utter farce these days.

What a lot of nonsense its become. I dont like Redbull, but I hope they decimate the championship just to pee the FIA off.

utajoker · 9 Jul 2011 at 06:07

Have
Haven't been following the f1 news this week but am I right in thinking the blown diffuser ban is for everyone bar Renault up to 50%? But rbr only ever used 45% so are unaffected?

deuse · 9 Jul 2011 at 07:22

utajoker said:
Have
Haven't been following the f1 news this week but am I right in thinking the blown diffuser ban is for everyone bar Renault up to 50%? But rbr only ever used 45% so are unaffected?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2011/07/new_engine_rules_power_f1s_lat.html

Looks like your right.

Duke · 9 Jul 2011 at 08:21

Possible news due this morning - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92948

Guerrilla · 9 Jul 2011 at 08:37

I find it difficult to think no matter what the decision was that RBR would be getting caught up this season, but even if they had been it would have felt pretty tarnished.

It really doesn't fill you with much hope in the FIA if they are so quick to change these rulings before they have really come into force.

JRS · 9 Jul 2011 at 08:41

As a protest against the new ruling, the Mercedes teams ran in second practice with 50% open throttle during braking. Then, there was an explosive exchange in the drivers' briefing with Whiting, with McLaren's Lewis Hamilton particularly animated on the matter.

Good on you Lewis, get that rage working for you instead of against you!

JRS · 9 Jul 2011 at 08:49

In other news, Hamilton's had his first trip to the stewards for the race weekend.... :rolleyes:

Hamilton and Webber called to see the stewards over using DRS in the wet practice.

Why is that even a rule?! If drivers want to risk using DRS in the wet, let them risk it! As Kobayashi proved in FP1, you can just as easily stack it with your DRS not engaged anyway.

smr · 9 Jul 2011 at 08:54

Anyone got a video to the press conference of Whitmarsh and Horner trading blows? Would love to see it if available

Hopefully the FIA have decided to do the sensible thing overnight and carry on with the rest of the season as it has been.

Will be an absolute joke if they implement this EBD reg which clearly favours RBR.