British Grand Prix 2011, Silverstone Circuit - Race 9/19

CS||nuTs said:
Got to love how this forum always goes on about Mark being given a slower car than Seb but, when Webber is in a quicker car nothing is mentioned,funny that. Maybe he only has a quicker car when Sebs pit stop strategy was changed to favour Mark? Then,what do i know?
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I don't believe he has a "slower" car than Vettel, that would be silly for the team. I do, however, believe the RB was designed around Vettel's driving style.

At the end of the day, Vettel's success has all been down to his brilliant qualifying and management of tyres out in front. As soon as he is behind another car, his tyres overheat and his pace drops off. The fact that Webber has been doing so poorly in quali, and as a result gets him stuck in traffic, has made him look much slower than he actually is.
 
I was really just being awkward, I'm not a conspiracy nut.

However, There are so many factors involved that it's hard to have a clear perspective on things.

You must get more of an insight than us 'laymen' but from my point of view, who's to say that the team were happy to settle with Vettel getting 2nd place, did the maths and decided he could wind down his engine map to save the engine for future races rather than ragging the **** out of it trying to catch Alonso.

That's just one of the many variables that come in to play. It's not as black-and-white as 'Webber was faster at a certain point in this race, therefor all of the suspicion is unfounded'...
 
Panzerbjorn said:
I was really just being awkward, I'm not a conspiracy nut.

However, There are so many factors involved that it's hard to have a clear perspective on things.

You must get more of an insight than us 'laymen' but from my point of view, who's to say that the team were happy to settle with Vettel getting 2nd place, did the maths and decided he could wind down his engine map to save the engine for future races rather than ragging the **** out of it trying to catch Alonso.

That's just one of the many variables that come in to play. It's not as black-and-white as 'Webber was faster at a certain point in this race, therefor all of the suspicion is unfounded'...
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A very valid point,knowing the engine use for both i do have a unfair advantage but, trust me, in this circumstance the only reason Seb was slower was due to tyre wear [plus a KERS malfunction]. We changed the tyre strategies to get Mark past Hamilton,normally the lead driver would have had the optimum strategy but we had to look at the bigger picture. Dont get me wrong, i hate team orders as much as the next man but ,sometimes we have to make a call. Anyway, as im sure you are all aware, Mark ignored the calls [i know this for a fact as ive listened to the pit radio messages] and tried to take Seb. He still couldnt do it despite being on better tyres and having KERS.
 
CS||nuTs said:
A very valid point,knowing the engine use for both i do have a unfair advantage but, trust me, in this circumstance the only reason Seb was slower was due to tyre wear [plus a KERS malfunction]. We changed the tyre strategies to get Mark past Hamilton,normally the lead driver would have had the optimum strategy but we had to look at the bigger picture. Dont get me wrong, i hate team orders as much as the next man but ,sometimes we have to make a call. Anyway, as im sure you are all aware, Mark ignored the calls [i know this for a fact as ive listened to the pit radio messages] and tried to take Seb. He still couldnt do it despite being on better tyres and having KERS.
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Tyre wear (*edit* and KERS) being another variable I was alluding to.

You might not be able to answer this but; do you think Mark 'gave up' and conceeded to the team order because he couldn't overtake Vettel or do you think given the last couple of laps that were left of the race, if there had been no team orders he would have got past?
 
Hmm tricky one, knowing Seb he would not of wanted to let him through, the wall knew that and issued the order to Mark. Personally,i think Mark would'nt have been able to make a clean move on Seb and there would have been a coming together,the only chance he had would have been in the DRS zone but, as others have eluded to, our DRS was not that strong at Silverstone.
 
Fair enough really. Christian Horner said in his interview after the race that basically the team couldn't risk it. If you guys know that Seb isn't going to give up the position without a fight and the chances are Webber isn't going to be able to make a clean move then it makes sense to call it, especially now that team orders aren't illegal.

Like I said, I'm not a conspiracy nut. I thought it was quite interesting in the F1 forum when EJ asked the audience what they would do in Horner's position. I was firmly in the 'team orders' camp and I think most people, if they were honest with themselves, would do the same thing.
 
Panzerbjorn said:
Like I said, I'm not a conspiracy nut. I thought it was quite interesting in the F1 forum when EJ asked the audience what they would do in Horner's position. I was firmly in the 'team orders' camp and I think most people, if they were honest with themselves, would do the same thing.
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Team orders were the logical choice when you consider all of the facts - it just spoils the show a little. It could have been an excellent fight.
 
CaptainRAVE said:
Team orders were the logical choice when you consider all of the facts - it just spoils the show a little. It could have been an excellent fight.
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Oh, no doubt about it. As a spectator I would have loved to see the two RBR's go wheel-to-wheel at the final corner like Hamilton and Massa did.

But as CS|Nuts says, if you know your drivers and you know that neither of them are going to concede, there is only really one logical choice.
 
CS||nuTs said:
Not really, just wonder how Mark managed to get anywhere near Seb in the race when sebs car is apparently "Quicker". Its just a simple question.
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Because for once Marks Kers worked ;) and with the blown diffuser rules hindering Seb aussie whinging hot air was blown across Marks diffuser :p

Personally I think Mark would have looked better had he got close and had and look but whinged about getting the team order.

As it stands he ignored the order and failed anyway.

I don't think the pair of them can be trusted to race hard and fair against each other so i can see why the call was made.

Vettel is clearly the future of the team and if webber wanted a shot again he needed to have the form of last year. Even last year he knew his standing in the team. No one held a gun to his head to sign for this year.
 
CS||nuTs said:
Not really, just wonder how Mark managed to get anywhere near Seb in the race when sebs car is apparently "Quicker". Its just a simple question.
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come on - you know the complexities of the car setup

Mark is a great driver, but the team probably knows as well as he does the kind of setup given x conditions etc, it would be very easy indeed to make fractional changes so that MW's car isnt performing optimally for any given weekend so that he cant compete directly with Seb yet still get valuable team points

One weekend when he has to be ordered to stay behind SV because the setup comes to him at the best possible time wouldnt make that much difference to the team (they are after all only swapping positions on the podium after all) but could mean a vast difference come the end of hte season to the individual driver

It could also be valid that at this point in the season IF MW was able to put in a consistantly good run of races and finish above SV - the closer the championship becomes an internal fight - the team order at the GB GP put a stop to that right there and then

It suits RBR right down to the ground to not have an internal fight between the drivers (and could be said it might even suit them to annoy MW a little bit considering his age and contract extensions and stuff, get a cheaper /younger driver in who is even less of a challange )

There is always potential for that with one driver heavily favvoured in a team

Panzerbjorn said:
Like I said, I'm not a conspiracy nut. I thought it was quite interesting in the F1 forum when EJ asked the audience what they would do in Horner's position. I was firmly in the 'team orders' camp and I think most people, if they were honest with themselves, would do the same thing.
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Personally think you are away in cookoo land myself - the FIA should have kept the rulebook as it was , however been much more pro-active about coming down hard on teams who use it.

Red Bull are already have an advantage with TR (who conveniently seem to fight a lot less with an RBR behind than anything else) , it may only be minor places but it should still be 24 drivers racing evenly against each other , not factions only racing parts of the grid and not others.

McLaren have proven time and time again that fair (and safe from the team point of view) racing between their cars can work (and Canada was more an individual error by Hamilton not allowing for current conditions) - I dont see why other teams cant employ the same tactics

Team orders should NEVER have a place in racing - otherwise you might as well give the drivers champion to one of three drivers in Jan and rotate
 
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FrankJH said:
come on - you know the complexities of the car setup

Mark is a great driver, but the team probably knows as well as he does the kind of setup given x conditions etc, it would be very easy indeed to make fractional changes so that MW's car isnt performing optimally for any given weekend so that he cant compete directly with Seb yet still get valuable team points
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What are you serious? So how far down the chain of command does this 'nobbling' of Webbers car go in your eyes?

Who makes the call to tweak say the suspension 1 turn softer so Mark cannot compete. Who tells his engineers that they have made webbers car fractionally worse and when they suggest changes not allow them to be made?

If this was seriously happening too many people would have to know about it.

I totally agree if someone suggested developement and car design might be built to favour Vettels style or smaller size/weight but deliberately making fractional changes so webber wasn't competitive would be very hard to hide.

Better equipment, latest updates etc yeah I'm sure that's been done in the past and future in F1.

Red Bull making fractional changes to stop Webber winning is a joke.
 
FrankJH said:
Personally think you are away in cookoo land myself - the FIA should have kept the rulebook as it was , however been much more pro-active about coming down hard on teams who use it.
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Panzerbjorn said:
Oh, no doubt about it. As a spectator I would have loved to see the two RBR's go wheel-to-wheel at the final corner like Hamilton and Massa did.
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I don't like team orders, I would much prefer it if they didn't exist.

However, with the current rules team orders are legal.

You're in Horner's seat on the pit wall, two laps to go and you've currently got 33 constructors points in the bag. Both drivers are giving everything they've got against each other, you know these two people very well (Like CS|Nuts was saying). You know the guy in front isn't going to give it up and the guy behind will probably push too hard to get ahead. The potential to leave with no points at all is high.

Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't be on the radio telling the guy behind to calm it down and bring the team a comfortable 2-3?

If you say yes I think you're being incredibly naive and only looking at it from a spectators position.

I don't like it either but I understand and accept it.

Like you said, the only real solution would be for the FIA to actually enforce the ban correctly but they proved last season with Ferrari that they are incapable of doing so. A $100,000 penalty in a sport where the entry fee alone is £25m is an absolute joke.
 
FrankJH said:
McLaren have proven time and time again that fair (and safe from the team point of view) racing between their cars can work
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What happened in 2007 - Alonso vs Hamilton?

They allowed their drivers to race and lost out to Kimi, by 1 point. Who incidentally, was gifted a race win by Massa, that year.

The point I am making is that if you do not get assistance from your team-mate, winning the title becomes a little bit more difficult.

The best strategy to win the title is to have a No1 and No2 system in place. This has been proved time and time again by MSc, Alonso and now, Vettel.
 
If they had entered the final few races with a clear No1 and No2 system in place, Alonso (or Hamilton), would've won the title. Their problem is that they were taking points off eachother and also there was far too much animosity between the 2 of them. Poor (or lack of) management merely compounded the problems which were on-going.

When you are effectively, firing the best driver in F1 and removing him from your team, you know that something isn't right. A few months after Alonso left, Denis also gave up his position to Whitmarsh, who, I remember, stated that he wants to have the 2 best drivers in his team (which goes against what Denis had done a few months earlier, by getting rid of Alonso).

Anyway, I'm rambling. As you were gents...
 
FrankJH said:
McLaren have proven time and time again that fair (and safe from the team point of view) racing between their cars can work (and Canada was more an individual error by Hamilton not allowing for current conditions) - I dont see why other teams cant employ the same tactics

Team orders should NEVER have a place in racing - otherwise you might as well give the drivers champion to one of three drivers in Jan and rotate
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Clearly you haven't taken notice of Mclaren very well. Ask Coulthard who had to move over twice to give Hakkinen a win. One at the first race of the season because they bodged poor old mikas pitstop. Boo hoo. Now can you imagine them radioing Webber and saying sorry old boy we made a mistake with Vettels pitstop, he was ahead of you before the stop so if you wouldn't mind moving over so he can win it would be appreciated.

Mclaren have has team orders for as long as I can remember. They either do it by having DC move over or Dennis used to play games with the drivers. Unsettle someone who he didn't want beating his hero. He had a face like a smacked bottom when DC won. He signed and unsettled JPM as soon as he took him away from Williams. Didn't want alonso beating his love child and heiki clearly was a no2 and rightly so.

Or you can have the scenario when Dennis predetermined which of his drivers would win the race if they were still running. Or the agreement the drivers had where they would race only to the first stop or first corner.

To say Mclaren let their drivers just get on with it is laughable, "Jenson save fuel".

Williams is the only team to my recent memory that let the drivers get on with it when in a title battle. I think they even used to alternate who had the spare car as well.

Sadly it's impossible to police team orders so you have to get used to it. They all do it.
 
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