Canadian Grand Prix 2012, Montréal - Race 7/20

[Skeeter]

If you think DRS is great and adds to the sport then that's fine, I don't and I won't be changing my mind, as neither will you so it's pointless running in circles again.

I'm not trying to say DRS is fantastically wonderfull. Its far from it. Its artificial, its changing the way people think about overtaking, and its making overtakes that could be epic into quite simple ones.
...
It is the lesser of 2 evils. It is by no means the ideal solution.

And after this from you...

Jesus you do like to take a comment, spin it around, mix it up a bit then come out with some rubbish don't you.

Its the same old OcUK F1 thread problem, a balanced middle ground view is just not acceptable. Because I don't think DRS is 100% utter ****, that must mean I think its 100% utterly brilliant and perfect...

Just like suggesting that Hamilton wasn't completely useless and 100% to blame for every incident last year got me labeled a Hamilton fanboy.
And not filling the forum with rants claiming that the Sky deal was the work of the devil got me labeled a Sky fanboy.

For what its worth, I think DRS sucks. But I see it as being better than the alternative of processional races with neutered racing. Given the choice between something ****, and something slightly less ****, I'll take the slightly less **** option.

 

[413x]

Something else > Drs > no Drs

That's my opinion, even tho it is artificial (funny word in f1) its better than a procession, i enjoyed Canada,

I would propose a more significant kers boost, longer and more, you know you would get some tard using it inappropriately

Or maybe Drs at anytime for anyone. That would be.. Amusing, lots of crashes tho

 

[Skeeter]

Yep, there are better solutions, but the better a solution, the more work involved, the longer the delay, and the higher the reliance on getting everyone to agree which in F1 is next to impossible.

The 2014 solutions look to be better, but they are still 2 years away, having been announced 2 years ago, and been in discussion for a number of years before that.

DRS is a short term fix to fill the gap while they push through the longer term more serious changes.

Out of interest, when was the overtaking working group formed? Edit: the beginning of 2007.

 

[Mr Men]

And after this from you...

I don't read all your posts sorry, I am only reply to what you say to me. So we agree DRS sucks, that's grand

 

[413x]

More I think about it more I think a doubling of kers in both power and time would be better

You'd have to pick your spot
The defender would have to second guess you,
If the car infront was slower then they would run out first.
It's not as artificial as everyone has the same.

Could even say you have xyz amount available at the start of the race, use it whn you want, but you have to start with a flat battery.. Ie no first lap use

 

[Mr Men]

Given the choice between something ****, and something slightly less ****, I'll take the slightly less **** option.

Explains why you favour Lewis over Jenson

 

[Mr Men]

A question about MS and his DRS failure, I was sure I read it was impossible for the DRS to fail and be in the open position? Was it locked open something to do with their Double DRS, and if so should it now be banned on safety grounds

 

[Skeeter]

More I think about it more I think a doubling of kers in both power and time would be better

Your wish has been granted:

5.2.2 The maximum power used to propel or brake the car through the MGUK must not exceed 120kW (currently 60kW)
5.2.3 Energy input from the MGUK to the ES may not exceed 2MJ in any one lap and energy released from the ES to the MGUK may not exceed 4MJ in any one lap.

2014 Technical Regulations

So a translations: The teams can store twice as much KERS and deploy it however they like over 1 lap, rather than the current restriction of 6.7 second or whatever it is. That means use it all around the lap on all acceleration zones, or fire it off in one big lump, or mix the two, chop and change throughout the race, all sorts.

 

[Skeeter]

Explains why you favour Lewis over Jenson

Except I'm primarily a Jenson fan... lol.

 

[413x]

^Lol nice, I'm not sure if twice as much is enough to provide a Drs alternative but I think it's a good move none the less

So you can only half fill each lap? Makes sense, bit more tactical

Quite clever, a slower car infront may not be able to save up two laps worth they would probably have to use it all each lap they were being chased, by contrast a faster car by nature wouldn't have to and could save it up

 

[Mr Men]

Except I'm primarily a Jenson fan... lol.

Makes more sense then I thought you were a Brit fan? So when will Jenson be getting the treatment you have dished out to MS and Massa this season?

 

[FrankJH]

Agreed, in the 'old' days this scenario wouldn't have dragged on so long because they would have gone testing and swapped cars to find if there was a flaw in the mechanicals or in Jensons head or some part of the equipment he just does not like.

Right now it's reminding me of Zinardi floundering with the brakes at Williams. He's shown he can handle this car and regs well enough. Yeah he's not ever going to regularly beat LH on saturday but he has never struggled this badly on sundays that I can remember. They must have some idea whats changed on the car from oz to now.

totally. It would be frustrating, but understandable if he was having one bad race every so often - but 3 or 4 in a row is completely unheard of in a reasonably competitive car (over all the races)

LH and JB have always had similar race pace over all three season they have been together - so to be 1-2s off LH's pace last weekend (on a track he won on last season, albeit in different weather) is a complete mystery

Maybe due to McLaren having an ourtight car advantage at that point?

Whatever the problems are, McLaren's attempts to solve them have only seemed to make things worse. He's gone backward, quickly, and rather than take the Alonso approach of knuckling down and focusing on fixing things, he's just started moaning. I expect a number of other drivers would have refused to do the PR stuff and demanded they go testing if they had issues to sort.

There's been a bit of a role reversal in terms of mentality between the McLaren drivers this year.

They didnt have an outright advantage when Rosberg won and JB was second though

I think you are over-exaggerating "moaning" - all he has said is (in other words) - I am completely confused as to what is causing it - not exactly stomping his foot and throwing a tantrum or anything. PR is part of his contract, saying he wont do PR until the car is fixed isnt going to make a happy team (who he needs to fix the problem in the first place).

Oh come on - "mentality" of Lewis at times last season was obnoxious/rude / surly - how ever you want to look at it, JB has always put on a "WE will fix the issue " attitude (rather than blaming the team etc etc).

I've actually never understood why the detection and activation points can't be in the same place? It can't take 5+ seconds for the ECU to calculate if the gap is less than a second and activate DRS, can it?

.

I have to say, Ive always thought this strange too - I dont see why it isnt the same line (surely ecu should be able to do the calculation instantly, if there is any calculation to do (is ecu actually doing anything apart from allowing the DRS to work - there has to be something trackside monitoring the gaps, not someting on the individual cars?)

 

[mp260767]

button always moans when he doesnt have the perfect car i thought everyone had grown used to it by now?

agree, he just needs to get on with driving the car, strange thing over the weekend, his lap times are pretty poor in comparison (think they said 2 seconds a lap down), pits and goes back out on the same tyres, did i miss something ?

don't really like alonso but he's gone up in my estimations this season with the way hes driven the ferrari and how he's handled things so far.

 

[Jono8]

Probably be shot down for this suggestion but would giving everyone a limited number of DRS 'opens' a race which they can use whenever be a better solution? Say 10 a race or something.

There would be a bit of cat and mouse over whether or not the guy behind would use his and maybe you could hold onto them until the end of the race and use them to make a few passes or early on to gain track position.

There's probably an obvious reason I'm missing why this would be a **** idea though

I really like that idea.

 

[Skeeter]

^Lol nice, I'm not sure if twice as much is enough to provide a Drs alternative but I think it's a good move none the less

So you can only half fill each lap? Makes sense, bit more tactical

Quite clever, a slower car infront may not be able to save up two laps worth they would probably have to use it all each lap they were being chased, by contrast a faster car by nature wouldn't have to and could save it up

Yeah, it sounds like an all together more tactical setup. I really like the limit on the amount of energy that can be used per lap allowing freedom in how they deploy it, rather than the fixed time limit they have now.

That 2MJ per lap is only from Kinetic recovery though. They can use Thermal recovery systems as well to top up the stored energy, but I can't find any limits on that in the regs.

Makes more sense then I thought you were a Brit fan? So when will Jenson be getting the treatment you have dished out to MS and Massa this season?

If you read back I have been slating his whole attitude at the moment. Ok saying he has swapped roles with Lewis might be a bit far, but he is definitely putting on a poor show in terms of drive compared to Alonso, who was in a much worse situation at the start of this year.

The testing thing has really bugged me though. McLaren thought PR was more important, Button shrugged it off as being a bit pointless and he didn't feel there was anything they needed him there for, yet since the test he has just fallen backwards.

Oh, and I am a Brit fan, teams and drivers, but Button is the only Brit who was in F1 when I really got into it so has retained my support the longest. Above all though I am an 'F1 Fan', which means no mater how much I don't like Alonso, I'm really pleased that Ferrari have turned their car around. A 3 way fight is always more interesting than a 2 way fight.

 

[arknor]

A question about MS and his DRS failure, I was sure I read it was impossible for the DRS to fail and be in the open position? Was it locked open something to do with their Double DRS, and if so should it now be banned on safety grounds

double drs isnt doing anything for them they had the second slowest top speed in canada

ddrs is passive anyway its just a hole going from one end of the car to the other

agree, he just needs to get on with driving the car, strange thing over the weekend, his lap times are pretty poor in comparison (think they said 2 seconds a lap down), pits and goes back out on the same tyres, did i miss something ?

don't really like alonso but he's gone up in my estimations this season with the way hes driven the ferrari and how he's handled things so far.

he did the same in bahrain or whatever wet race it was near the start of the season

pitted > tyres are dead in likr 6laps? lol pits for same tyres and still does the same lap times......

 

[PinkFloyd]

Fantastic, so you don't want over taking, no defensive driving.

Drs is ****, was **** and will always be a **** idea.

It isn't fair, it isn't good and the biggest problem up has been overcome with rule changes anyway. Namely following distance.

It is also nothing like Kees or turbo where everyone has use of it.

Agreed. Getting rid of DRS completely and allowing more flexibility on KERS usage along with the rule changes allowing cars to drive closer together would be awesome
So we're pretty much on the right track for 2014 if we get rid of DRS

 

[Skeeter]

There is no way Button is mullering the tyres to the extent that he needed 3 stops in Canada because they were worn out. I think they are just bringing him in and changing tyres and some wing settings and things in the hope that it helps with what looks like an underlying grip/balance issue.

I think its a safe assumption that McLaren don't really know what his issue are yet.

Hmm.... EBD maybe? A loss of so much rear grip its completely thrown him off? McLarens EBD arrived at Silverstone in 2010 (although it never really worked properly until much later in the season), I wonder how he performed for the first half of 2010 (i.e. when he had no DD and no EBD, just like now).

Edit: nope, scrap that. Buttons 1st half of 2010 was better than his 2nd half. No idea where this sudden loss of form has come from then.

 

[Skeeter]

So we're pretty much on the right track for 2014 if we get rid of DRS

DRS is still in the 2014 regs for now, although they have said that they will drop it if they think other technology will provide ample overtaking.

I've no idea how significant the aero changes for 2014 are. Nobody has really gone to the effort to understand them and mock up any designs yet.

 

[413x]

Agreed. Getting rid of DRS completely and allowing more flexibility on KERS usage along with the rule changes allowing cars to drive closer together would be awesome
So we're pretty much on the right track for 2014 if we get rid of DRS

getting there i have always liked kers from the start, also i always thought it was never enough, i guess now it seems everyone has kers reliability they feel they can rack it up

i also now have access to sky f1 via my grandparents. they have sky sports