Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

sinwave · 2 May 2019 at 20:16

Energize said:
I am of the opinion that athletes should be allowed to take whatever drugs they like, this completely eliminates these concerns and would allow us to see the peak of human performance, I want to see the fastest 100m the longest long jump etc.

As a promotional tool for health I can see this kind of sporting direction backfiring.

I'm not against letting (requiring) women compete with men though. especially in non contact sport.

cheesyboy · 2 May 2019 at 20:20

Energize said:
I am of the opinion that athletes should be allowed to take whatever drugs they like, this completely eliminates these concerns and would allow us to see the peak of human performance, I want to see the fastest 100m the longest long jump etc.

We already saw that in the 70s and 80s.

That's why all the women's records from that era still hold.

Makes much less difference to the men. It wouldn't improve the spectacle.

sinwave · 2 May 2019 at 20:25

cheesyboy said:
Makes much less difference to the men. It wouldn't improve the spectacle.

i saw an interesting lecture about mens sprinting and how the vast majority of improvement in times is due to technology including shoes, starting blocks, and running surfaces rather than physical prowess. it's got something in common with formula one in that respect.

makes comparing historic records a bit of a fools errand.

dowie · 2 May 2019 at 20:26

Mr Jack said:
Caster is not a man identifying as a woman. She is a woman with atypically high testosterone.

I'm not sure she's strictly either, she's an intersex person raised as and identifying as a woman AFAIK.

builder22 · 2 May 2019 at 20:29

Energize said:
I am of the opinion that athletes should be allowed to take whatever drugs they like, this completely eliminates these concerns and would allow us to see the peak of human performance, I want to see the fastest 100m the longest long jump etc.

Imagine the post-race interviews!

Dirk Diggler · 2 May 2019 at 20:31

Mr Jack said:
Caster is not a man identifying as a woman. She is a woman with atypically high testosterone.

My understanding is that Caster has a pair of balls, though I'm more than happy to be corrected.

cheesyboy · 2 May 2019 at 20:34

String said:
My understanding is that Caster has a pair of balls, though I'm more than happy to be corrected.

Only sort of. They're internal, like ovaries, and her body is apparently not able to make use of the testosterone fully in the same way as a man. We've not had full details, but I rather doubt they're fully functional as you'd think of testicles.

She's not male, but not female either, biologically.

Mr Jack · 2 May 2019 at 20:35

String said:
My understanding is that Caster has a pair of balls, though I'm more than happy to be corrected.

There is not a single shred of evidence for this ridiculous assertion. None. Nada. Zip. It's slander made up by prize turds. If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female, and the whole mess wouldn't have come to testosterone test levels.

dowie · 2 May 2019 at 20:40

Mr Jack said:
There is not a single shred of evidence for this ridiculous assertion. None. Nada. Zip. It's slander made up by prize turds. If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female, and the whole mess wouldn't have come to testosterone test levels.

Erm... have you got any evidence that the IAAF didn't find she was intersex?

AFAIK they never released the results, there were however leaks...

If you're going to claim they repeatedly found she was female then please do link to the results because AFAIK they never released them officially.

sinwave · 2 May 2019 at 20:43

two things needed really. evidence that IAAF determined that she is female and the criteria on which they made the decision.

h4rm0ny · 2 May 2019 at 20:45

Mr Jack said:
Caster is not a man identifying as a woman. She is a woman with atypically high testosterone.

It's not atypically high. It's actually pretty normal for a man.

dowie · 2 May 2019 at 20:47

@Mr Jack

this was the leak:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/o...er-Semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show.html

The tests carried out on the 18 year-old shortly after her victory in Berlin are believed to have shown that she has a chromosomal abnormality that gives her both male and female characteristics.

According to reports in the Australian media, the medical tests have established that she has no womb or ovaries and that she also has internal testes – the male sexual organs responsible for producing testosterone.

Earlier analysis had revealed that Semenya's testosterone levels were three times the normal level for a woman.

The International Association of Athletics Federations received the results of Semenya's 'gender verification test' this week, but it has refused to confirm the findings until they have been verified by a panel of independent scientific experts and the athlete has been personally informed.

But Pierre Weiss, the IAAF secretary general, hinted strongly at the results on Thursday when he said: "It is clear that she is a woman, but maybe not 100 per cent. We have to see if she has an advantage from her possibly being between two sexes compared to the others."

So visually there is seemingly no penis, but internally she's apparently got testes...

Are you still going to maintain that they found out she was female when testing here - in which case what is the basis for your claim?

Mr Jack · 2 May 2019 at 20:47

dowie said:
Erm... have you got any evidence that the IAAF didn't find she was intersex?

They passed her to compete as female. A pair of hanging balls, as asserted, would have been pretty clear evidence against, no?

There is no publicly available evidence as to the nature of her condition. In a sense any form of increased testosterone could be considered intersex but there are plenty of causes that aren't usually considered so. Either way she is not a man trying to pass as a woman. She IS a woman. The questions about how she should compete is complex enough without bringing this rubbish into it; and is a quite different question as to whether transgender women should be able to compete.

Dirk Diggler · 2 May 2019 at 20:48

Mr Jack said:
There is not a single shred of evidence for this ridiculous assertion. None. Nada. Zip. It's slander made up by prize turds. If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female, and the whole mess wouldn't have come to testosterone test levels.

You can't refute on the basis that there is no evidence and at the same time provide no evidence. That's just ridiculous.

P.s I didn't say they were hanging.

sinwave · 2 May 2019 at 20:52

Mr Jack said:
They passed her to compete as female.

that's as clear as mud then.

Mr Jack · 2 May 2019 at 20:55

String said:
You can't refute on the basis that there is no evidence and at the same time provide no evidence. That's just ridiculous.

Usually when you want to claim a woman is a man, it's typically considered your job to prove it.

P.s I didn't say they were hanging.

You might want to be a bit clearer then.

dowie · 2 May 2019 at 20:55

Mr Jack said:
They passed her to compete as female. A pair of hanging balls, as asserted, would have been pretty clear evidence against, no?

no one claimed a pair of hanging balls, please don't throw in a straw man argument here.... and they clearly don't want her competing as female unless she undergoes some treatment else this case wouldn't exist

Mr Jack said:
There is no publicly available evidence as to the nature of her condition.

so you can't back up the claim you made above where you asserted: "If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female"

You don't know that they did, according to both the public statement from the IAAF and leak it seems she is intersex

Mr Jack said:
In a sense any form of increased testosterone could be considered intersex but there are plenty of causes that aren't usually considered so. Either way she is not a man trying to pass as a woman. She IS a woman. The questions about how she should compete is complex enough without bringing this rubbish into it; and is a quite different question as to whether transgender women should be able to compete.

I'm not claiming she is a man trying to pass as a woman AFAIK she is intersex. You made a claim that she has been repeatedly found to be female, you have no basis to make that claim.

Trying to portray this as simply a woman with higher than normal testosterone is what draws the flawed comparisons to say Bolt having longer legs etc.. We segregate athletics into male and female events, if she's not really completely female then that does pose a dilemma.

visibleman · 2 May 2019 at 21:02

cheesyboy said:
She's not male, but not female either, biologically.

Do they have female 'features' (breasts, mammary glands to be specific) at all, ie - anything that adds to the female portion of intersex? Or are they essentially a stunted male?

Dirk Diggler · 2 May 2019 at 21:03

Mr Jack said:
Usually when you want to claim a woman is a man, it's typically considered your job to prove it.

You might want to be a bit clearer then.

I was totally clear, I did not say hanging balls; you did. Neither have I referred to Caster as a man. Or a woman. That's the point.

Mr Jack · 2 May 2019 at 21:08

String said:
I was totally clear, I did not say hanging balls; you did.

I'd don't believe you're so stupid as to think that the normal use of "balls" doesn't refer to an external part of the male genitalia. When that's not what you mean try using the words that do mean what you mean.