If you have the testosterone levels of a male, then you can't fairly compete against females, because for all intents and purposes you have the same advantage as someone who is using steroids. It's pointless for the women to run against her. It would be like competing in bodybuilding against Ronnie Coleman or Arnold Schwarzenegger as a natural athlete, entirely pointless.
Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics
- Thread starter dowie
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I know what you were trying to say, you've just repeated it... I can repeat again that we don't segregate based on those sorts of physical features, we segregated based on sex.
Soldato
And Semenya is female. She just has a condition that gives her some male characteristics. Just like some women have blonde hair/brown eyes.
she's intersex, she's more male really but she choses to identify as female, that is the issue.. if you're going to segregate based on sex, then it is a bit farcical to let someone with the physical benefits of a man compete as a woman
Soldato
If you're incapable or unwilling to separate "some women have blonde hair" from "Semenya has testicles", then you're not willing to engage in the premise that men and women are different. At which point there can be no meaningful dialogue between you and us because you refuse to use common, historical and meaningful definitions which the rest of us recognize.
Soldato
Not intersex at all. An autogynephile who got sexual arousal from dressing up as a woman and used to sneak into his ten year old daughter's bedroom and play with her underwear. (The daughter ended up setting up a web cam to try and find out what was happening and saw her father doing it - Jenner told the story himself as a "funny" anecdote. Can't imagine how she felt seeing her naked father doing things with her underwear).
Soldato
I think you are missing my point - I'm simply saying that a person who has lived her life as a woman, is regarded by the IAAF as a woman and has legal status as a woman is also gentically 'blessed' with a condition that makes her faster than other 'women'. The 'alledged' un-descended testicles is irrelevant until either they or the testosterone they produce stop her running in womans athletics.
Do I think she is 100% woman? No. 100% man? No.
But I am happy to use she/her as that is how she wants to be seen. Her eligibility to compete in women's athletics is up to the IAAF and probably the courts to determine, not us !
kind of irrelevant, I think everyone posting is well aware that their opinion/post on the matter isn't going to affect her eligibility
Soldato
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The one and only reason men and women compete separately is because men have organs that produce a natural PED. So does Caster. This is incredibly unfair to the other women.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479
This bit seems a bit optimistic: "For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," I suspect that her times will drop off significantly once the testosterone is reduced.
This is still a minefield though, this is a bit of a fudge to balance her desire to compete as a woman and the fact she's apparently got male advantages. Testosterone reduction doesn't avoid other issues such as say bone structure/height etc.. in boxing, wrestling or basketball.
This bit seems a bit optimistic: "For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," I suspect that her times will drop off significantly once the testosterone is reduced.
This is still a minefield though, this is a bit of a fudge to balance her desire to compete as a woman and the fact she's apparently got male advantages. Testosterone reduction doesn't avoid other issues such as say bone structure/height etc.. in boxing, wrestling or basketball.
Soldato
When a female runner gets on her marks, and traps her left ball while hunkering down, you've got to suspect it might not be a level playing field.
Soldato
Frankly, they're making a mistake by trying to allow someone to compete based on hormone treatments. For a start, the IAAF should not be condoning or encouraging harmful non-essential treatments for sporting purposes. After all, that is one of the rationals for banning other substances - yes, those substances offer a performance advantage in their cases but the justification has always been that it sends out a wrong message and offers an unfair advantage. Caster will be physically worse off on testosterone suppressants (quality of life, libido, psychologically). And as for advantage, whilst it seems counter-intuitive to think of testosterone suppression as conveying an unfair advantage the practical outcome here is to allow a male to compete in women's events, which is still an advantage. Caster is a male athlete with a developmental disorder. They have testicles, they're just internal. They never had a properly developed penis but you don't run with your penis (I would imagine). Males have different body proportions, different levels of muscular development, different chest size (cardio-vascular advantage). Even separate from all these things, is it acceptable for someone to spend 28 years with the developmental advantages of having higher testosterone and then take some drugs to lower it before an event and claim that makes you equal? If a woman spent years juicing and then stopped for a couple of weeks whilst she competed, would that be acceptable? Yes, testosterone suppressants will impact Caster's performance. But it wont suddenly make him a woman.
There are a number of intersex disorders but generally speaking, intersex people have a sex, they just have a failure to express it correctly. E.g. as in this case where Caster is a male (with the accompanying biological advantages) but their genitalia did not express correctly.
It's an unfortunate situation and I feel sorry for Caster. But I'm not willing to throw out Women's Sports for their sake. They can legitimately compete in the men's events if they wish. Nobody is going to say to a man "you can't try out with us because we can't see your balls". But the truth is that Caster wouldn't even place in the men's events. They'd never have made it to the finals. The only reason she/he has is because he's a biological male who chose (I repeat, chose), to compete against women.
There are a number of intersex disorders but generally speaking, intersex people have a sex, they just have a failure to express it correctly. E.g. as in this case where Caster is a male (with the accompanying biological advantages) but their genitalia did not express correctly.
It's an unfortunate situation and I feel sorry for Caster. But I'm not willing to throw out Women's Sports for their sake. They can legitimately compete in the men's events if they wish. Nobody is going to say to a man "you can't try out with us because we can't see your balls". But the truth is that Caster wouldn't even place in the men's events. They'd never have made it to the finals. The only reason she/he has is because he's a biological male who chose (I repeat, chose), to compete against women.
Associate
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I disagree with this from both a scientific and sporting. Seemenya has testes and I'm pretty sure an XY Chromosone. From a sporting perspective she/he not only has far far higher testosterone, but certainly appears to have male hips and bone structure, which are advantageous amongst many other male attributes. Technically he is a man who's sexual organs never developed properly.
From a sporting perspective it's an absolute travesty watching a man with all the natural advantages compete with women. If he does indeed have all male advantages and no female drawbacks, he actually isn't a particularly good athlete.
We seem to have drifted from the original point, so here's a reminder:
She's a bloke, with plums, who got clever and thought she'd identify as a woman to compete with women and have the upper hand of male genetics. The world went nuts but she was committed to the lie and here we are today.
She's a bloke, end of.
She's a bloke, with plums, who got clever and thought she'd identify as a woman to compete with women and have the upper hand of male genetics. The world went nuts but she was committed to the lie and here we are today.
She's a bloke, end of.
Associate
You'd think if he was trying to convince the world he was a burd, he'd have changed his surname to someone that didn't contain the word semen 
Associate
You'd think if he was trying to convince the world he was a burd, he'd have changed his surname to someone that didn't contain the word semen
And get a husband !
Caster Semenya has had the advantage of growing up with higher testosterone levels as well which affects bone density, muscle density etc. which gives her an advantage even if they lower her testosterone levels now.
They need to come up with categories for these people similar to what they do in the paralympics because there are all sorts of levels to this.
They need to come up with categories for these people similar to what they do in the paralympics because there are all sorts of levels to this.
I feel sorry for all the female athletes who train for their lives to compete at these types of events, and knowing they don't stand a chance of even competing when they're up against a man who wants to identify as a woman.
It just makes the whole thing a farce!
He/she is free to identify as whatever gender they wish to identify as, but when it comes to competing in sports, he/she needs to compete against equals.
As somone else said earlier on, he's probably a rubbish athlete who would never even be able to compete in men's events, so now by identifying as a woman, he can now win golds.
It just makes the whole thing a farce!
He/she is free to identify as whatever gender they wish to identify as, but when it comes to competing in sports, he/she needs to compete against equals.
As somone else said earlier on, he's probably a rubbish athlete who would never even be able to compete in men's events, so now by identifying as a woman, he can now win golds.