charles and camilla attacked

Soldato
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My point was that a window isn't just a window. British or otherwise.

.


It's exactly that, just a window. Until there is an actual threat to life then there is no need to use excessive force, ie shooting somebody.
And tbh I doubt even in the US as gung ho as they seem that they would shoot somebody if they threw paint at or smashed a window of the presidents car unless there was an actual real threat to his life.
 
Man of Honour
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can you not talk to me like a piece of **** please? what makes you think your better than me? Ever think to care what other people think?

I care what other people think when those other people express rational, carefully considered, evidence driven opinions, ideas and proposals.

So far, you've failed spectacularly in that task, preferring instead to make irrational rants, attacks and spread ill-educated and incorrect ideas about the nature of the Student loan system, politics, the economy and what the world is like, as well as randomly attack and ignore anyone who disagrees with you.

You certainly haven't created a good impression, and based on your performance, then yes, I'm better than you, because my views have at least some basis in reality. If you want, we can go into other metrics if you prefer...
 
Soldato
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TBH, that doesn't wash with me.

Fire me your address, and I'll come round and break yours.

Not "just a window" then, is it?

what are you going on about?

the discussion stems from this:

"Because breaking a window deserves a bullet to the head?? pfft. "

"Not just anyone's window is it. "

not "just a window" then, is it?


i'd be annoyed but yes it's still just a window, although I wouldn't ask for the police to come and shoot you for breaking it
 
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Soldato
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or maybe those guarding the president would be trained to deal with such a situation without resorting to shooting someone armed with a stick

oh they'd be shot alright. you run towards the president and you're getting shot, you go near him with a stick, your head's coming off
 
Soldato
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oh they'd be shot alright. you run towards the president and you're getting shot, you go near him with a stick, your head's coming off

have you ever heard of it happening?

I haven't so all I can go on is that many important people/ figureheads have been attacked (in a none life threatening way) over the years, such as being egged, shoes thrown at president Bush, etc ,and the situations are dealt with by the security without resorting to gunning people down
 
Caporegime
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I'm on about the current system with the £900 grant instalments given to low income families.

The poor kids are angry because they cant leverage that money to push forward to paying their loan.

As you said they not supposed to use it to spend lavish on clothes and computer parts but they do. lool

And the smart ones use that free £2700 grant to pay off the tuition fee loan that is paid directly to the university.

Sorry, I still don't get you. AFAIK any maintenence loan/grant goes straight to the university, you can't spend it on other things and even if you could you would still have to pay the same amount to the university.

If you are talking about the maintenence grants then that's different, even then if it is spent on lavish things that's their fault, they are still getting it to help them live.

When you say "push forward to paying their loan" do you mean pay off their loan earlier after graduation? If so then that's pretty worthless anyway as most of the time it's better to never pay more than the minimum off and stick the excess into a savings account.

I'm guessing as well that if they do get a £2700 tuition fee grant that they also only get a £300 tuition fee loan?

this tbh... the value an oxbridge degree will add to your expected earnings in general is way way more than the 21k in fees you'll not have to pay back until you've graduated.

I would say though that there should be a system where some of the fees/loans can be retrospectively canceled/written off for graduates who choose to stay in academia/go into teaching. Otherwise we'll just add to a situation where even more top physics/maths grads go off to investment banks, hedge funds etc...

Teaching and academia will become an even less attractive career prospect with high levels of debt, a system whereby your debt can be steadily written off in addition to your repayments for each year you teach would be useful in encouraging people. On a very simple level its only fair - if you're going to be directly contributing to the education of many others on behalf of the state then the costs of your own eduction should be written off by the state.

What's the worry there? If academics (bearing in mind after a few years they are not that badly paid, lots of lecturers for example are on over £30k and I know a few that make wayyy more than that as consultants for big business) do stay in academia then they will probably only be paying a small amount each month anyway due to their "low" pay, reducing the student debt they have to pay will probably make no real difference to them at all. Those going into teaching and doing a PGCE get reasonable grants anyway (and bear in mind they don't pay to do a PGCE).
 
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This is a genuine question here as I don't know the answer, but if you're a graduate earning £22k a year, the government have said you'll be paying let's say £400 a year back. However as you're repaying your accumulating interest. I made an assumption earlier that the starting rate of interest would be RPI + 0.5 % (5% at today's RPI). Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that mean on your debt of £27k, you haven't even covered the interest charge on your loan?

Ok we have a result for you. (I hope you appreciate the effort);)

You are correct to assume the debt increases in year one and indeed for a number of years if we assume an increase of 5%/annum and repayments of 9%/annum on £22k.

In the first year he will pay a total of £90/annum toward the loan of £27k but accrue £1350 in interest.

However if this stays static then he will only repay £2700 in total at the end of the 30 year period and the rest is wiped off, so his actual contribution is £2700, or less than one years tuition at current levels.

Now let's we take it one stage further and extrapolate this in real terms across the 30 year working lifetime of a graduate.

We need to make some assumptions so given that RPI is likely to be near it's peak (given the BoE target of 2%) we can safely assume that 5% is a reasonable figure for an annual increase over the lifetime of the loan regardless of the income. If we also assume that the Graduate will over the 30 years increase his salary via normal annual rises and promotions in real terms by 4%/annum on average (4% plus RPI).

The principle loan amount grows until it reaches it peak of £32,842 in year 9, the Graduate is earning £38,943 in year 9 and repaying £1,913/annum in contributions for that year. From year 10 until year 19 the principle amount decreases until in year 20 the graduate is in surplus, hence it is reasonable to extrapolate that the average graduate, given average increases in salary against average increases in RPI will repay his loan in 20 years having paid a total of £57,986. A full 5 years quicker than the NUS graduate tax proposal and with paying a lower annual fee and total fee overall.

excelcapture.jpg



Alternatively if we assume a more conservative view of the graduate's earning potential and allocate a 2.5%/annum (+4%RPI) rise the picture changes so that the total debt is repaid in year 24, still before the NUS graduate tax system and with paying less/annum and overall. Most importantly the amount repaid whilst he is a low earner is pretty insignificant and not a liability to his monthly income.

ECEL23YR.jpg



Of course in all likelihood his progression will be quicker at the early end of his career which will shorten the time it takes to repay the loan and thus the total amounts significantly, but from the examples I think you will agree that it is not as onerous as the NUS proposals and for the lower earners it is infinitely better than what we currently have or what the NUS propose in regards to the actual real amount of contributions expected.
 
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But when people don't get such a real terms pay increase, every year, over the course of their career...? Not every graduate is on over £100 000 when they retire :|.

You need to factor in inflation (which I've done) if you take away the RPI then the figures will be in today's prices so to speak.:)

The increase is 4% on average, or 2.5% on average with the second, more conservative calculation, this includes not only normal pay rises in line with what you would expect in a static job but also jumps in salary with progression and promotion.

If the graduate earns less, lets say the 2.5% figure, you can see that he still repays less than he would in the NUS 25 year time-frame.


£100,000 in 2030 will not be worth £100,000 in today's money, for example the average wage today is £28000, in 1980 (30 years ago) it was £6000. If we extrapolate that then £100k in 2030 is a reasonable assumption.
 
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But don't many people just stop progressing? They don't keep getting promoted every year, for many it plateaus, no? :s.

I think the perceived ~burden of debt~ is an important thing, tbh... which is one reason a pure graduate tax is better than a tuition fee loan system. Well the prospect of debt is off-putting to people from ~disadvantaged backgrounds~ (speaking from personal experience, after talking to those kinda kids).

Indeed it plateaus and this is why I said that given that most of the averaged potential for earnings increase will come earlier in the career path, you can reasonably expect to repay the loans sooner than I have extrapolated, thus actually paying less overall than the averages would suggest.


As for the perceived burden of debt, explain it to them, don't patronise them with perceived fallacies, explain the proposals in full and they might just surprise you when they realise that overall the Graduate Tax system means they actually pay far more for their degree overall.

Pay less over a shorter term is not too difficult a notion to understand surely.:(


I understand that some people will have an ideological aversion to this proposal but I honestly think that it is in the best interests of the student, especially those in low paid professions when they graduate. If I thought a graduate tax was better, I would support it (I have done so in the past, albeit with a slightly different system).
 
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Caporegime
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But don't many people just stop progressing? They don't keep getting promoted every year, for many it plateaus, no? :s.

I think the perceived ~burden of debt~ is an important thing, tbh... which is one reason a pure graduate tax is better than a tuition fee loan system. Well the prospect of debt is off-putting to people from ~disadvantaged backgrounds~ (speaking from personal experience, after talking to those kinda kids).

The point is, its a system whereby if you never get a great job paying a lot, you'll likely not pay off much of the loan, and it gets wiped out, it does not drag on forever. If you end up in a great job, you pay your entire loan back, with a bunch of interest and that helps keep the government ticking over.

So poorer people in less good jobs pay for their degree at a very low rate for a long number of years and then have most of the debt wiped out completely, rich people in great jobs pay far more than their education is worth, its a tax thats fair to the poor and very unfair to the rich, like most taxes.
 
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Lulz, ironic. I have explained various alternatives numerous times... to numerous people... that doesn't work because of how "DEBT IS EVIL" has been drilled into them forever.

Well, I fail to see the irony as I do not ascribe to the "ALL DEBT IS EVIL" brigade. Mismanagement of debt is another ballgame, but the world revolves on managed debt, that is a fact of economic life.
 
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