Chinese cars

[Nasher]

A couple of years ago I went to a conference on EU innovation programs. A lot of high profile speakers - the European Commissioner for Innovation, prime ministers, top EU bureaucrats dealing with technology. Essentially most of the people who manage the EU innovation investments. The impression I got was they have no clue about technology. They don't fund companies doing real innovation because those don't have some sort of certificate (and EU issues just a few of those a year and they go to well connected people, and not real innovators). ...

AKA corruption. It seems much worse than in the UK. The EU contains governments like Hungary's which are well known to be dodgy. French ex-president recently convicted of fraud...

The EU has also crippled itself with silly regulations.

 

[Simon]

AKA corruption. It seems much worse than in the UK. The EU contains governments like Hungary's which are well known to be dodgy. French ex-president recently convicted of fraud...

The EU has also crippled itself with silly regulations.

arent you a postman ?

 

[jpaul]

international postman/courier ?

They are not happy with Chinese companies taking over big high tech markets, with products where all the technology, design, parts manufacturing and services are done in China.

but isn't/wasn't most of the car R&D done in the west/japan : silicon-carbide invertors, flat windings, optimization of magnet placement, battery design, and drivetrain management electronics/software,
all, exemplified by tesla ... and chinese native companies contribution, to purloin and mass produce them, patent abuse/infraction, all, with govt complicity. - IP wars

- like for phones... I remember about 8 yrs ago when Huawei were poaching western engineers in Cambridge for high salaries to 'transfer' technology to china, all before they/huawei became pariahs;
at that time Mr Cameron and China were best mates. AFAIK china are reliant on western fabs/design for analogue base band parts - qualcomm


( Amusing that Aliexpress are now championed by beckam, after his advocacy for Saudi - if the price is right )

 

[sparton_SPA]

Does anyone have any experience of the BYD Seal?

For someone that has always had German monochrome cars, I seem weirdly attracted to the look of the Seal. Would rather go for this over the equivalent BMW-i or TESLA.

 

[413x]

Hope we get more cheap Chinese EVs.
Only way I'll end up with one in the next 5 years is if prices are driven right down.

 

[lordrobs]

Hope we get more cheap Chinese EVs.
Only way I'll end up with one in the next 5 years is if prices are driven right down.

That's a short sighted approach though. Once the Chinese brands have forced out the competition and got a foothold in the rest of the world market will the Chinese state continue to subsidise their production for non-domestic markets? Or will we simply be left with a load of Chinese brands for the same price as you were previously paying for the established western brands?

 

[413x]

That's a short sighted approach though. Once the Chinese brands have forced out the competition and got a foothold in the rest of the world market will the Chinese state continue to subsidise their production for non-domestic markets? Or will we simply be left with a load of Chinese brands for the same price as you were previously paying for the established western brands?

I don't believe that will happen. They will carve out a market share. But not everyone in the UK drives a Ford fiesta.
There will always be demand for different price tiers. I mean right now I can walk around the council estate and see Mercedes parked outside a tiny grotty council house full of rubbish in the garden.
Even poorer people often want luxury.

For those who don't want a pcp car, it's going to be years before current EVs are at an affordable buy outright price without some cheap Chinese models coming in

 

[lordrobs]

I don't believe that will happen. They will carve out a market share. But not everyone in the UK drives a Ford fiesta.
There will always be demand for different price tiers. I mean right now I can walk around the council estate and see Mercedes parked outside a tiny grotty council house full of rubbish in the garden.
Even poorer people often want luxury.

For those who don't want a pcp car, it's going to be years before current EVs are at an affordable buy outright price without some cheap Chinese models coming in

Don't forget that the Chinese aren't just producing cars at the bottom end of the market. Even if you are looking to buy a Merc E-class if there is something from the East that offers you an S-class rivalling product for the same money (or less), you may be tempted. Depends how much value you associate with the badge but the issue is more about undercutting equivalent cars than simply a race to the bottom of who can knock out EVs the cheapest.

Its hard to tell how things will pan out though. I've got extended family who are loaded, live in a gorgeous house in enough grounds to fit a small housing estate. Always used to buy the German marques, their latest car... MG ZS EV. Another person I know with more than a few spare zero's in the bank, always bought JLR products, their first EV purchase... Hyundai Kona. It's like the move to EV elicited a phase shift in how they perceive a vehicle.

Maybe its about saving money. Then again maybe it's why people, irrespective of their wealth, buy a Bic biro to write their shopping lists not a Montblanc fountain pen. It's a utility to do a job.

Personally I'd rather the market be kept competitive and if there is proof that the subsidies are as significant as we are led to believe then import levies seem to be the most effective way to counter that.

 

[413x]

Don't forget that the Chinese aren't just producing cars at the bottom end of the market. Even if you are looking to buy a Merc E-class if there is something from the East that offers you an S-class rivalling product for the same money (or less), you may be tempted. Depends how much value you associate with the badge but the issue is more about undercutting equivalent cars than simply a race to the bottom of who can knock out EVs the cheapest.

Its hard to tell how things will pan out though. I've got extended family who are loaded, live in a gorgeous house in enough grounds to fit a small housing estate. Always used to buy the German marques, their latest car... MG ZS EV. Another person I know with more than a few spare zero's in the bank, always bought JLR products, their first EV purchase... Hyundai Kona. It's like the move to EV elicited a phase shift in how they perceive a vehicle.

Maybe its about saving money. Then again maybe it's why people, irrespective of their wealth, buy a Bic biro to write their shopping lists not a Montblanc fountain pen. It's a utility to do a job.

Personally I'd rather the market be kept competitive and if there is proof that the subsidies are as significant as we are led to believe then import levies seem to be the most effective way to counter that.

Its a choice for governments basically. If they want to meet those net zero commitments they probably need to let these Chinese imports in to allow people who don't want to spend much get something.

If protecting European manufacturers and jobs is more important.. Then whack some tariffs on.

That's the choice I suppose. I prefer the former. As I do think net zero is more important than some jobs.

I suspect we'll follow Europe and whack some tariffs on if I'm guessing.


I mean they could set creative tariffs on luxury models and less on the cheap models.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

the other thing we need to get out of our heads is that it’s not only the Chinese government which is subsidising their car industry.

We are all playing the same game (see U.K. gov investment in Tata/JLR, see IRA in USA), the Chinese have just played a batter game than us.

At some point we either need to pull our finger out and go for gold or accept it is what it is.

I wouldn’t accept tariffs on imports if the screw wasn’t also turned on ‘domestic’ manufacturing.

 

[lordrobs]

Its a choice for governments basically. If they want to meet those net zero commitments they probably need to let these Chinese imports in to allow people who don't want to spend much get something.

If protecting European manufacturers and jobs is more important.. Then whack some tariffs on.

That's the choice I suppose. I prefer the former. As I do think net zero is more important than some jobs.

I suspect we'll follow Europe and whack some tariffs on if I'm guessing.


I mean they could set creative tariffs on luxury models and less on the cheap models.

That's a fair outlook TBH. Personally, I think impact on "net zero" of people in the UK / Europe swapping their Euro 6 emission standard family hatchback that covers 6000 miles a year for an EV SUV is the equivalent of spitting in the ocean.

The environmental impact I'd be more concerned with is if we end up buying cars in mass quantities from manufacturers that have little to no physical presence in the country meaning there is no support network if things go wrong. We really don't want cars to become throw away items no matter how much you can salvage back out of them.

EDIT - that's not to say I'm not pro EV, I most certainly am but from a more selfish local air pollution perspective.

the other thing we need to get out of our heads is that it’s not only the Chinese government which is subsidising their car industry.

We are all playing the same game (see U.K. gov investment in Tata/JLR, see IRA in USA), the Chinese have just played a batter game than us.

At some point we either need to pull our finger out and go for gold or accept it is what it is.

I wouldn’t accept tariffs on imports if the screw wasn’t also turned on ‘domestic’ manufacturing.

What is domestic manufacturing though? JLR using Chery platforms? Stellantis building Chinese kit cars in the Eastern bloc or SAIC VW knocking out 1.8m cars a year? It's an extremely grey area and all too much for me. I'll buy British and get myself a Corolla

 

[413x]

That's a fair outlook TBH. Personally, I think impact on "net zero" of people in the UK / Europe swapping their Euro 6 emission standard family hatchback that covers 6000 miles a year for an EV SUV is the equivalent of spitting in the ocean.

The environmental impact I'd be more concerned with is if we end up buying cars in mass quantities from manufacturers that have little to no physical presence in the country meaning there is no support network if things go wrong. We really don't want cars to become throw away items no matter how much you can salvage back out of them.

EDIT - that's not to say I'm not pro EV, I most certainly am but from a more selfish local air pollution perspective.

What is domestic manufacturing though? JLR using Chery platforms? Stellantis building Chinese kit cars in the Eastern bloc or SAIC VW knocking out 1.8m cars a year? It's an extremely grey area and all too much for me. I'll buy British and get myself a Corolla

Oh for sure that would be the main point to consider for me on a Chinese vehicle.

Much like buying something from Aliexpress, where there's no warranty and it's unfixable... you have to throw it away...
This isn't great for anything. But a car? That's a bit different.


Same with my surface book laptop. Basically if anything breaks the enitre unit is gone. Nothing is serviceable. I've been lucky. Mine is still going. But I certainly wouldn't buy one again.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

That's a fair outlook TBH. Personally, I think impact on "net zero" of people in the UK / Europe swapping their Euro 6 emission standard family hatchback that covers 6000 miles a year for an EV SUV is the equivalent of spitting in the ocean.

The environmental impact I'd be more concerned with is if we end up buying cars in mass quantities from manufacturers that have little to no physical presence in the country meaning there is no support network if things go wrong. We really don't want cars to become throw away items no matter how much you can salvage back out of them.

EDIT - that's not to say I'm not pro EV, I most certainly am but from a more selfish local air pollution perspective.

It’s not just about net zero, air quality should be the first and foremost reason to go EV.

There is a significant rise in non-smoker lung cancer and it’s impacting younger and younger people.

This is because modern cars are spitting out small cancer causing particles like never before. There is no such thing as clean combustion.

The rise of the ‘carbon neutral’ log burner is a complete disaster for air quality.

 

[lordrobs]

It’s not just about net zero, air quality should be the first and foremost reason to go EV.

There is a significant rise in non-smoker lung cancer and it’s impacting younger and younger people.

This is because modern cars are spitting out small cancer causing particles like never before. There is no such thing as clean combustion.

The rise of the ‘carbon neutral’ log burner is a complete disaster for air quality.

Absolutely. That's why I added my edit because I always seem to come across as anti EV with my comments. Well, that is how they look to me when I read them back

Fact is that I want EVs to make up the lions share of the cars on the road but I don't particularly like the rhetoric around the reason for adoption or the approach that's been taken for transitioning from ICE to cleaner transport.

 

[nam]

Does anyone have any experience of the BYD Seal?

For someone that has always had German monochrome cars, I seem weirdly attracted to the look of the Seal. Would rather go for this over the equivalent BMW-i or TESLA.

Overpriced currently compared to domestic market and in comparison to volvo and only to get more expensive soon.

The real test will be if we ever will get Nio and XPeng, Zeeker who are at a better point in price/quality

With the tariffs soon to come into effect probably will never arrive in the UK

 

[sparton_SPA]

Overpriced currently compared to domestic market and in comparison to volvo and only to get more expensive soon.

The real test will be if we ever will get Nio and XPeng, Zeeker who are at a better point in price/quality

With the tariffs soon to come into effect probably will never arrive in the UK

Thanks for the views.
NIO is another one I was looking at. I saw them at a car show in the NEC around 5 years ago.

 

[413x]

It’s not just about net zero, air quality should be the first and foremost reason to go EV.

There is a significant rise in non-smoker lung cancer and it’s impacting younger and younger people.

This is because modern cars are spitting out small cancer causing particles like never before. There is no such thing as clean combustion.

The rise of the ‘carbon neutral’ log burner is a complete disaster for air quality.

Does the tyre pollution increase ice read about from EVs cause any issues here? No idea. Just asking. It might be complete nonsense

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Conjecture

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Does the tyre pollution increase ice read about from EVs cause any issues here? No idea. Just asking. It might be complete nonsense

It doesn’t make any difference, there is certainly no credible evidence to say it does.

Tyre wear is a function of how you drive the car. Drive like a <insert naughty word here> get high tyre wear, drive normally, get normal tyre wear rates.

As far as I am aware the particles coming off tyres are significantly larger and can’t get deep into your lungs like PM2.5 and smaller does. Brake wear is obviously lower.

You are talking about the equivalent weight difference of a couple of plump passengers. Some cars it’s more, some it’s less.

The extra weight is not destroying the roads either which is the other nonsense myth that gets put out there by the FUD machine.

 

[413x]

It doesn’t make any difference, there is certainly no credible evidence to say it does.

Tyre wear is a function of how you drive the car. Drive like a <insert naughty word here> get high tyre wear, drive normally, get normal tyre wear rates.

As far as I am aware the particles coming off tyres are significantly larger and can’t get deep into your lungs like PM2.5 and smaller does. Brake wear is obviously lower.

You are talking about the equivalent weight difference of a couple of plump passengers. Some cars it’s more, some it’s less.

The extra weight is not destroying the roads either which is the other nonsense myth that gets put out there by the FUD machine.

Just asking as I had come across articles about tyre particulate being much higher on EVs. And that it was really damaging.

But wasn't sure if it was propaganda or not