Chinese cars

[b0rn2sk8]

Come on guys, the truck reference was not a serious comment… the only reason people ‘hear’ these thing is because the likes of the sun, express and mail print them daily and it’s the sort of logic they would apply

@Simon at no point did I compare or even imply a comparison between a Tesla Model 3 to a BMW 3 series.

The substance of the post was that there are too many variables from car to car to determine whether EVs generally wear though their tyres faster than an ICE car, the biggest unknown being how you drive it. Many of them come with tyres designed for the car also. There is no good evidence to suggest whichever is the case in either direction.

Using @simons comparison above, an ID.3 is rear drive, a golf is front drive, a typical ID.3 has more power and torque than a a standard Golf. Even cars running on the same platform like the Kona and Nero have significant power differences (and terrible traction control on the EVs).

Even if they do wear them faster, it’s not going to cause you to be making regular trips to kwik fit due to tyre wear.

 

[lordrobs]

Come on guys, the truck reference was not a serious comment… the only reason people ‘hear’ these thing is because the likes of the sun, express and mail print them daily and it’s the sort of logic they would apply

To be fair I don't read the sun but have questioned EV tyre life (and subsequent particulate issues) based on the Model S owner I know needing a complete new set of boots after just over 20k. I don't know what tyre size a Model S runs but that looks like a large amount of rubber to turn to dust over less than my annual mileage.

I don't think he drives particularly aggressively and he didn't change them early either because I remember him justifying running them to 2mm based on some aquaplaning stats he'd read online.

It sounds like others are getting much better tyre life though so maybe it is car or driver specific.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Based on posts on the owners group it seems Tesla Model S and X (particularly the X) can chew through tyres quickly if the suspension is worn or the wheel geometry is off (which could be due to the former also). Running the air suspension in low scrubs the tyres quickly. Tesla isn’t exactly known for its stellar suspension and has always been a bit of a weak point, after market suspension parts can be a lot better.

The other thing to consider is a S/X will have >500hp in dual motor guise. A performance model had ~750hp. They are stupidly fast cars in a straight line.

 

[lordrobs]

Based on posts on the owners group it seems Tesla Model S and X (particularly the X) can chew through tyres quickly if the suspension is worn or the wheel geometry is off (which could be due to the former also). Running the air suspension in low scrubs the tyres quickly. Tesla isn’t exactly known for its stellar suspension and has always been a bit of a weak point, after market suspension parts can be a lot better.

The other thing to consider is a S/X will have >500hp in dual motor guise. A performance model had ~750hp. They are stupidly fast cars in a straight line.

Yeah this is a 75D and while he isn't a quick driver generally, the traffic light GP seems to be something he participates in quite a bit.

 

[nam]

Yeah this is a 75D and while he isn't a quick driver generally, the traffic light GP seems to be something he participates in quite a bit.

Didn't the S/X have air suspension ?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Didn't the S/X have air suspension ?

Not all of them, the early ones were on coils, it was an option for a while and then went standard.

The X may have always been on Air but it came later than the S which certainly came with coils on the early models (e.g. S 85).

One thing we know for sure is the S/X isn’t Chinese or even made in China so we are quite off topic at this point.

 

[lordrobs]

It's far from black and white isn't it! A big tariff to protect your EU domestic market could soon bite you on the backside when they return the favour and all of a sudden the Chinese don't want your Mercs, Beemers and VeeDubs.

Likewise VW are very much in bed with the 'enemy' with their SAIC link. That relationship is likely to be soured a touch.

I'll be very surprised if those percentages quoted aren't watered down significantly before July 4th.

OK... so I was wrong on that one I stand by my general sentiment though but will revise with... I'll be very surprised if those percentages aren't watered down significantly before they become definitive in 4 months time.

EU has as much to lose as China here and their big brands are already well and truly in bed with the Chinese companies that they are claiming have unfair subsidies. That has to swing both ways.

Interesting times I guess.

 

[cuke2u]

Without the protection of the EU the UK is far more vulnerable than any...

 

[jpaul]

If there is even a medium term threat of increased duties on chinese cars, that's going to increase cost of ownership for existing Chinese cars
with hedging on funding for spare parts network and skills for their maintenance;
the rules of origin duties that EU signed up to are coming in, irrespective, too.

 

[lordrobs]

If there is even a medium term threat of increased duties on chinese cars, that's going to increase cost of ownership for existing Chinese cars
with hedging on funding for spare parts network and skills for their maintenance;
the rules of origin duties that EU signed up to are coming in, irrespective, too.

It's probably something for owners to at least be aware of. The BBC article on this had a quote from an MG owner that had me face palming so hard I nearly knocked myself out...

For Mr Krupcala, who bought his MG4 before the tariffs hit, the EU's move does not matter much: "I don't really care about the tariffs. I have a nice car with a seven-year warranty."

You probably should care if you want some form of support to exist in the UK in 6 years time when you try and lean on that warranty.

 

[SkyTerran]

IMHO the British and German car manufacturers need to accept that long term they will loose 90% of the sales they currently make in China. The Chinese market is adopting EVs very quickly and no Western company, except Tesla, can compete with Chinese EVs. Furthermore as AI/self driving technologies become more widely spread, IMHO the Chinese government will make an effort to remove any cars running foreign made software/models from their roads. They already clean the streets of Teslas before Xi's visits.

 

[dlockers]

IMHO the British and German car manufacturers need to accept that long term they will loose 90% of the sales they currently make in China. The Chinese market is adopting EVs very quickly and no Western company, except Tesla, can compete with Chinese EVs. Furthermore as AI/self driving technologies become more widely spread, IMHO the Chinese government will make an effort to remove any cars running foreign made software/models from their roads. They already clean the streets of Teslas before Xi's visits.

You've missed a big point that the Chinese want non Chinese things...and there is no car running exclusively non Chinese software/circuits.

 

[bigmike20vt]

It's probably something for owners to at least be aware of. The BBC article on this had a quote from an MG owner that had me face palming so hard I nearly knocked myself out...


You probably should care if you want some form of support to exist in the UK in 6 years time when you try and lean on that warranty.

realistically does anyone think MG or Chinese cars (Inc the "European" brands that many do not know are Chinese in general are going anywhere regardless of what duty the government put on them?

 

[jpaul]

maybe 2nd generation chinese carstrojan horses like ex-30 will have less depreciation and good long term support

IMHO the British and German car manufacturers need to accept that long term they will loose 90% of the sales they currently make in China. The Chinese market is adopting EVs very quickly and no Western company, except Tesla, can compete with Chinese EVs. Furthermore as AI/self driving technologies become more widely spread, IMHO the Chinese government will make an effort to remove any cars running foreign made software/models from their roads. They already clean the streets of Teslas before Xi's visits.

ironically one of the reason tesla are less competitive in china is the cost of the additional $800vs$200 computing power/silicon to run their ( imminently prime time) self drive technology - darwinism.
interesting read https://www.moomoo.com/news/post/27092511/ubs-dismantled-byd-s-seal-and-the-cost-was-15
... if only owner could deploy that silicon for efficient crypto mining, say, versus drivingdamaging yourself

 

[lordrobs]

realistically does anyone think MG or Chinese cars (Inc the "European" brands that many do not know are Chinese in general are going anywhere regardless of what duty the government put on them?

I think brands like MG will struggle if tariffs mean that they lose their main USP, being cheaper than the competition.

That said, initial signs are that they'll simply be built in kit form in Eastern Europe to swerve the tariffs anyway.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I think brands like MG will struggle if tariffs mean that they lose their main USP, being cheaper than the competition.

time will tell i suppose....... Personally i doubt any tariffs imposed will have the teeth needed to make such a difference to force Chinese cars out of the market.
Even tho the Chinese are potentially going to decimate european car making.........i cant help but feel we bought it on ourselves (as a society not individually). No one forced us to send all our manufacture over there, or our skilled labour.... it was done purely because it allowed companies to save a few quid.

This issue is largely, or at least significantly, one of our own making................ screaming "unfair" now just because the other shoe has dropped rings a little hollow to me. If i were a neutral observer i may suggest you reap what you sow!.

 

[lordrobs]

time will tell i suppose....... Personally i doubt any tariffs imposed will have the teeth needed to make such a difference to force Chinese cars out of the market.
Even tho the Chinese are potentially going to decimate european car making.........i cant help but feel we bought it on ourselves (as a society not individually). No one forced us to send all our manufacture over there, or our skilled labour.... it was done purely because it allowed companies to save a few quid.

This issue is largely, or at least significantly, one of our own making................ screaming "unfair" now just because the other shoe has dropped rings a little hollow to me. If i were a neutral observer i may suggest you reap what you sow!.

I don't disagree. Individual markets can choose to 'defend' their domestic manufacturers and the only method they have to do that is through import tariffs. The problem with car manufacturer is that the likes of VW are nicely nestled under the duvet with the likes of SAIC so it isn't a clear cut situation at all. Also the Chinese like the 'premium' brands as much as we like their cheap offerings so it's a two way street.

The level of Chinese state support is a convenient measure to levy the tariffs against. As you say, they got the run on things while we were piddling about with the likes of Britishvolt.

 

[SkyTerran]

 

[jpaul]

seems the germans alone won't be able to defeat the new eu chinese tarifs - starmers sitting on the fence ?

Mission Impossible: Germany’s bid to kill EU duties on Chinese EVs

Germany has one last chance to overturn the tariffs at a vote by member countries. But getting the required blocking majority looks to be out of reach — and would be without precedent.

www.politico.eu

Are the chinese going to be competitive in next generation solid state batteries, if the west protect that technology,
should be a big point of inflexion in the whole market, when you can have a car with same range as current ev's, and weight back in ICE spectrum.