creatine

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ethos said:
What is considered "too much" protein and can you back this up? :)

There are no set figures, as not everyones bodies are the same.

This isn't a serious discussion on protein bulking and the side effects. I just made a passing comment about the theories that eating loads and loads of protein can put strain on your kidneys etc.

If you want to read all about it, I suggest you use a search engine.
 
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Anyway, if the OP wants to "fill out" and increase mass etc. Protein shouldn't be what the discussion is about. Nor creatine. Surely complex carbs should be taking up an equal percentage, if not more, than his protein intake.
 
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Goatboy said:
You're waffling so :rolleyes: straight back at you for trying to get involved in a subject you know nothing about.

My sarcasm wasn't because you don't know you're talking about, it was for clipping my quotations to try and twist what I'm saying, for no obvious reason other than to be a troll.

But thanks for contributing to the thread all the same..
 

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suicidle_tramp said:
Does creatine do anything other than increase water in the muscles?
Allegedly a fair bit...

Creatine is marketed as "nature's muscle builder" and "the most legitimate sports supplement around." Professional and amateur athletes alike are gobbling up this alleged ergogenic aid, hoping to increase their strength and performance. Creatine supplementation is claimed to increase muscle power by playing a role in the transfer of energy to help the muscle contract. Supplement labels state that "creatine is converted to phosphocreatine, which is important for short energy bursts such as sprinting and weight lifting" and that "depletion of phosphocreatine can result in muscle fatigue and fading muscle power." Claims are also made that supplementation increases muscle body mass. Health-food stores sell creatine supplements in capsule, chewable, and powdered form, the most popular being the powder. One teaspoon of powder contains 5 grams (g) of creatine monohydrate. The recommended daily dose is 1-2 teaspoons dissolved in 8 ounces of water or sweetened beverage. Manufacturers and distributors suggest a five- to seven-day loading phase with intake of 10-20 g (2-4 scoops) daily to fill up the muscle. The maintenance phase of 5-10 g/day is recommended before and/or immediately following a workout. This protocol is claimed to increase creatine muscle stores by 20-50%.

Role In Muscle Contraction

To meet the demands of a high-intensity exercise, such as a sprint, muscles derive their energy from a series of reactions involving adenosine triphosphate (ATP), phosphocreatine (PCr), adenosine diphosphate (ADP), and creatine. ATP, the amount of which is relatively constant, provides energy when it releases a phosphate molecule and becomes ADP. ATP is regenerated when PCr donates a phosphate molecule that combines with ADP. Stored PCr can fuel the first 4-5 seconds of a sprint, but another fuel source must provide the energy to sustain the activity. Creatine supplements increase the storage of PCr, thus making more ATP available to fuel the working muscles and enable them to work harder before becoming fatigued [1].

Sources

The body's pool of creatine can be replenished either from food (or supplements) or through synthesis from precursor amino acids. Dietary sources include beef, tuna, cod, salmon, herring, and pork [2]. The normal dietary intake of creatine is 1-2 g/day, although vegetarians may consume less [3,4]. Dietary creatine is absorbed from the intestines into the bloodstream. If the dietary supply is limited, creatine can be synthesized from the body stores of the amino acids glycine, arginine, and methionine. The kidneys use glycine and arginine to make guanidinoacetate, which the liver methylates to form creatine [1], which is transported to the muscle cells for storage. It is also stored in the kidneys, sperm cells, and brain tissue [5].

The maximum amount of creatine the body can store is about 0.3 gram per kilogram of body weight [6]. The creatine content of skeletal (voluntary) muscles averages 125 millimoles per kilogram of dry matter (mmol/kg/dm) and ranges from about 60 to 160 mmol/kg/dm. Approximately 60% of muscle creatine is in the form of PCr. Human muscle seems to have an upper limit of creatine storage of 150 to 160 mmol/kg/dm. Athletes with high creatine stores don't appear to benefit from supplementation, whereas individuals with the lowest levels, such as vegetarians, have the most pronounced increases following supplementation. Without supplementation, the body can replenish muscle creatine at the rate of about 2 g/day [7].

Although creatine is a natural component of food, the amount of food required to supersaturate the muscle with PCr may not be feasible. For example, it could require 22 pounds of meat daily [8]. If creatine monohydrate is proven to be a safe and effective ergogenic aid, creatine supplementation may be the simplest way to increasing muscle stores. It may be beneficial to avoid caffeine if taking creatine supplements. One study showed that caffeine diminished strength gains seen with creatine use [9].

Evidence Supporting Use

Several studies support the use of creatine supplementation for enhancing activities that require short periods of high-intensity power and strength. These include weightlifting, sprinting, and rowing.




  • One study demonstrated that daily supplementation with 5 g of creatine monohydrate increased the intracellular creatine and PCr content of quadriceps muscle in 17 human subjects. Those with the lowest initial total creatine content had the greatest increase. In addition, exercise enhanced creatine uptake in muscle. No adverse effects were reported [5].
  • Another study found that one week of creatine supplementation at 25 g/day enhanced muscular performance during repeated sets of bench press and jump squat exercise. Creatine supplementation appeared to allow the subjects to complete their workouts at a higher intensity. The researchers concluded that, over time, working at higher intensities may provide a more intense training stimulus and improved muscular adaptations [10].
  • Another study demonstrated that females receiving 4 days of high-dose creatine intake (20 g/day) followed by low-dose creatine intake (5 g/day) during 10 weeks of resistance training (3hours/week) increased muscle PCr concentrations by 6%. Also, maximal strength of the muscle groups trained increased by 20-25%, maximal intermittent exercise capacity of the arm flexors increased by 10-25% and fat-free mass increased by 60% [11].
  • A double-blind study provided 20 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 5 days to qualified sprinters and jumpers who performed 45 seconds of continuous jumping and 60 seconds of continuous treadmill running. Supplementation enhanced performance in the jumping test by 7% for the first 15 seconds and 12% for the next 15 seconds, but there was no difference for the final 15 seconds. There was a 13% improvement in the time of intensive running to exhaustion [12].
  • Another double-blind study supplemented with 18.75 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 5 days prior to high-intensity intermittent work to exhaustion, and then 2.25 g/day during testing. The workouts consisted of cycling to exhaustion using several protocols: (a) nonstop, (b) 60 seconds work/120 seconds rest, (c) 20 seconds work/40 seconds rest, and (d) 10 seconds work/20 seconds rest. Creatine supplementation significantly increased the total work time for all four protocols [13].
  • Another study tested male subjects performing two bouts of 30 second isokinetic cycling before and after ingesting 20 g creatine monohydrate daily for 5 days. Work production improved about 4%. Cumulative increases in both peak and total work production over the two exercise bouts were positively correlated with the increase in muscle creatine [14].
  • A 12-week placebo-controlled study of 19 weightlifters in their mid-twenties found that the creatine group could lift more weight and had greater increases in fat-free mass and muscle-fiber size than did the placebo group. The researchers thought that the creatine let the athletes who used it train harder [15].
  • Three additional studies suggest that creatine supplementation may not be beneficial for running velocity, sprint swimming performance, or a maximal cycling effort [7]. Short bouts of repeated anaerobic activity have shown some potential benefits with creatine supplementation use in a laboratory setting. However, creatine supplementation has not been shown to enhance single-event performance such as stationary cycling [16-19]. Taken together, these studies do not support creatine supplementation to enhance aerobic activities such as distance running.
Other areas of research include therapeutic uses of creatine to help patients with muscle wasting caused by disease states such as muscular dystrophy and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Small-scale preliminary studies show some gains in strength may be possible for these patients, which could improve their quality of life. One study of 81 patients with various neurologic diseases found that giving 10 g/day of creatine for five days, followed by 5 grams for another week, increases their muscle strength by about 10% [20]. Large-scale studies should be done before recommendations are made to such patients.

Adverse Effects

Creatine supplementation often causes weight gain that can be mistaken for increase in muscle mass. Increasing intracellular creatine may cause an osmotic influx of water into the cell because creatine is an osmotically active substance [10]. It is possible that the weight gained is water retention and not increased muscle. The retention of water may be connected to reports of muscle cramps, dehydration, and heat intolerance when taking creatine supplements. It would be prudent to encourage proper hydration for creatine users. Further research is needed to investigate these and other possible side effects.

Creatine is classified as a "dietary supplement" under the 1994 Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act and is available without a prescription. Creatine is not subjected to FDA testing, and the purity and hygienic condition of commercial creatine products may be questionable [21]. A 1998 FDA report lists 32 adverse creatine-associated events that had been reported to FDA. These include seizure, vomiting, diarrhea, anxiety, myopathy, cardiac arrhythmia, deep vein thromboses and death. However, there is no certainty that a reported adverse event can be attributed to a particular product [22]. A recent survey of 28 male baseball players and 24 male football players, ages 18 to 23, found that 16 (31%) experienced diarrhea, 13 (25%) experienced muscle cramps, 7 (13%) reported unwanted weight gain, 7 (13%) reported dehydration, and 12 reported various other adverse effects [23].

Caution Urged

There appears to be some potential for creatine supplementation. However, many questions remain. Are there any long-term harmful effects from supplementation? Is there a point where enhanced performance levels off from long-term supplement usage? What effect does "stacking" or taking two ergogenic aids simultaneously have on the body? What happens if you immediately stop taking the creatine supplement? Is the enhanced performance great enough to warrant the expense of the supplement? Until further research answers these questions, creatine is not recommended for the average athlete.
...although it tends to be only recommended by people with a commercial interest.


Personally, I didn't feel any difference but I'm always well hydrated and have always had a good diet going.
 
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iCraig said:
can work like that... results are far from certain..

Exactly, at least 30% of people are complete "non-responders" to Creatine Monohydrate if I remember correctly. Creatine Ethyl-Ester is supposed to have a better success rate for these "non responders" but there are still plenty of people out there whom it does absolutely nothing for... Myself included. :(
 

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how exactly can you tell if it works for you though?

i have never used any, and have recently seen some very good gains, by looking at myself, and also by the weights i can lift. if i was to start using creatine now, and the gains carried on...how would i know it was the creatine, not my diet/routine that i have already been using successfully??
 
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Creatine is cheap as chips these days, especially if bought from the right places.

99.9% Creatine £1.80 per 100g
99.99% Creapure Creatine £2.99 per 100g - supposed to be best
Creatine Ethyl Esther HCL is £3.30 per 100g - can be taken on it's own in water, doesn't need an insulin spike, tastes like battery acid. It's truly vile tasting stuff.

From my personal experience Creatine is the best single supplement you can buy, but then I'm using it where it's main strengths are and I'm not expecting miracles, which I think some people do. Creatine is good for explosive power, short all out bursts of effort. i.e. Sprinting or low rep weight-lifting. If you want a boost for light-weight high rep circuit training or long distance running, look elsewhere.

This is how I look at it and it's my view based on my own experiences and from what I've read, it's not gospel.... ;) Your own body has it's own Creatine pool, this is supposed to be around 100g? If you train hard enough that your diet isn't replacing the lost Creatine then you will end up with a deficit and your bodys own Creatine will become depleted.

Now let this happen, and supplement your training with 5g -10g Creatine mono mixed with 10g Dextrose ( mono MUST be taken with a simple carb source to cause an insulin spike or it will be wasted ) within 30 minutes of your workout finishing. Your body is like a sponge at this time and will uptake more of whatever you put in your body. Don't take before training, you don't want an insulin spike at this time. Do this for a month, still think Creatine supplementation is useless...?

I take 3g Creatine Ethyl Esther 30 mins before training and around 6g Creatine mono straight after training. When I come off it I know about it, my strength goes down and I lose roughly about 5lbs in bodyweight within a month. My muscles look visibly less full. A week back on it and weight goes up, muscles fill out, strength goes up, it's VERY noticable. I'll just add I don't believe in the 20g a day for 5 days loading BS, it's not needed and it's just a waste.... imho of course :D

When you consider a serving of 5g can cost as little as £0.09p the way some folks go on about it being a waste of money..... I mean c'mon.

Also I'd highly recommend mixing Creatine with Taurine, which is another cheap as chips cell volumizer, and quite a few other things, for an even better effect :)
 
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A2Z said:
how exactly can you tell if it works for you though?

i have never used any, and have recently seen some very good gains, by looking at myself, and also by the weights i can lift. if i was to start using creatine now, and the gains carried on...how would i know it was the creatine, not my diet/routine that i have already been using successfully??

when i started using creatine i noticed a lot of difference in how many more reps i could do. more energy strength and after two weeks i had grown an inch all over it was very noticable for me, your best bet is to measure your body up then try creatine and in two to three weeks measure yourself again and see if any major growth has happened ;)
 

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Chong Warrior said:
When I come off it I know about it, my strength goes down and I lose roughly about 5lbs in bodyweight within a month. My muscles look visibly less full. A week back on it and weight goes up, muscles fill out, strength goes up, it's VERY noticable.
why would you want that? i wouldnt want my body to only look good when im taking creatine...
 
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When I come off it I know about it, my strength goes down and I lose roughly about 5lbs in bodyweight within a month. My muscles look visibly less full. A week back on it and weight goes up, muscles fill out, strength goes up, it's VERY noticable. I'll just add I don't believe in the 20g a day for 5 days loading BS, it's not needed and it's just a waste.... imho of course

There is a flaw in your diet/regime somewhere then, you should not be relying on creatine for growth.
 
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Chong Warrior said:
Who said I don't look good when I come off the Creatine? ;)

When did I say I was relying solely on Creatine for growth?

You didn't say it, but your statement that you get smaller when you come off it shows some of your growth isn't real hypertrophy, just water retention.

Unless you enter competitions etc, thats pointless.
 
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