Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra performance

[Wrinkly]

GTA V reflections.

What is in front -

What the game reflects -

This is the most basic use of a cubemap?

And an example of CP2077's reflection detail -

 

[Nexus18]

Again, you are completely missing the point.....

Essentially you don't think cdpr could have done a better job with the default SSR and the very least.... matched a 7 year old game?

 

[Grim5]

Again, you are completely missing the point.....

Essentially you don't think cdpr could have done a better job with the default SSR and the very least.... matched a 7 year old game?

Those gta v reflections are horrible totally fake looking.

 

[Wrinkly]

Again, you are completely missing the point.....

Poor SAM. He bought a 6800XT as he doesn't care about RT

Joking aside I understand your point. I just dont think it matters as tech has moved on.

Overall non RT CP2077 looks great, better than GTA V IMO. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see a mod raising reflection resolution if CDPR don't do it themselves. I did go back to GTA V, but I can't get a shot with such detail. Cars/objects are missing when I park right beside them. The best I can get is -

GTA V reflections.

What is in front -

What the game reflects -

This is the most basic use of a cubemap?

With RT Psycho CP2077 it looks to be the best eye candy we have had so far in PC gaming. RT ON!

 

[zx128k]

Of course it does because the raster reflections are abysmal. You're comparing 2020 RT with gimped 2013 raster where the non RT images are so gimped it's impossible
not to love the 'RT' images in comparison. A 12 year old would understand how and why this is being done as it showcases the amazing image quality of Nvidia's RT Ultra CP2077 rendering (sort of ).

Sorry to break it to you but thats what raster reflections really look like and the whole point of RT reflections. With raster its about whats in the camera frustum but with big open spaces none of the buildings would be in the camera frustum. Thus you have to re-render the scene to create a good reflection. This means rendering the scene much more than twice but once for every reflection. Thats a lot of rendering, so to keep performance decent. You lower the resolution of the renders for the reflections and blur them. Thus you keep performance under control.

There is always a distance cutoff when SSR which is about a 10 meter radius around your character at least in Cyberpunk. It's either all-in RT reflections or SSR.

Ulgly reflection were covered on the nvidia forums. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...ixelated-reflections-in-several-games-pictur/

Sora
2y
Close
You overestimate the fidelity of raster reflections and shadows, not a bug, not a hardware issue.

Of course, there's a lot more to the reflections and this is another key part of the lighting discussion. Cyberpunk uses a range of reflection techniques. On the high-end, ray traced reflections are supported but screen-space reflections are still layered into the scene to further enhance each reflection with additional visual information. On reflective surfaces, ray tracing enables pin sharp reflections that are physically accurate. The way they bend and conform to each surface is effective and you'll be able to enjoy surroundings reflected clear without relying on screen-space information. The only drawback is that your character is omitted from the BVH structure used to generate RT reflections and so your avatar never appears in the shiny surfaces - aside from certain mirrors in the game that use render-to-texture to copy the entire scene into a reflective surface.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-cyberpunk-2077-high-end-pc-tech-analysis

0:06 blurred SSR BFV. 0:48 clear RT reflections BFV Just the same as Cyberpunk 2077.

Funny all the, "you cant see the RT" shills. Yet everyone complains that the raster reflections are crap. It's almost like people really do see the RT effects.

With RT Psycho CP2077 it looks to be the best eye candy we have had so far in PC gaming. RT ON!

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

Sorry to break it to you but thats what raster reflections really look like and the whole point of RT reflections. With raster its about whats in the camera frustum but with big open spaces none of the buildings would be in the camera frustum. Thus you have to re-render the scene to create a good reflection. This means rendering the scene much more than twice but once for every reflection. Thats a lot of rendering, so to keep performance decent. You lower the resolution of the renders for the reflections and blur them. Thus you keep performance under control.

There is always a distance cutoff when SSR which is about a 10 meter radius around your character at least in Cyberpunk. It's either all-in RT reflections or SSR.

Ulgly reflection were covered on the nvidia forums. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...ixelated-reflections-in-several-games-pictur/



https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-cyberpunk-2077-high-end-pc-tech-analysis

0:06 blurred SSR BFV. 0:48 clear RT reflections BFV Just the same as Cyberpunk 2077.

Funny all the, "you cant see the RT" shills. Yet everyone complains that the raster reflections are crap. It's almost like people really do see the RT effects.

people are giving their opinion on it. Only a couple of people are shilling hard to justify RT in a clearly broken game.

Example @Wrinkly posts a GTA V screenshot to highlight the character model is missing from the reflection.
You then present a quote from somewhere stating that the character reflection will always be missing from cyberpunk with the exception of some pre-selected in-game mirrors(1st mission and Vs apartment). I loled in one of the missions where the nice lady walked to the blurry mirror to check out her face I guess she never turned the mirror on.
So again its one step forward and 2 back.(by the way NPCs are reflected although reduced quality vs RT in puddles with RT off too. I have not checked the glass missing from glass I guess CDPR could reflect NPCs in puddles with standard techniques but not glass)

you both just shilled eachother

You are missing the point of what has been posted in here, it's blatantly obvious that RT used properly will be superior but what cyberpunk offers is a mixed bag of inferior SSR and RT is used mostly as a boost in accuracy instead of pure RT features.

 

[zx128k]

people are giving their opinion on it. Only a couple of people are shilling hard to justify RT in a clearly broken game.

Example @Wrinkly posts a GTA V screenshot to highlight the character model is missing from the reflection.
You then present a quote from somewhere stating that the character reflection will always be missing from cyberpunk with the exception of some pre-selected in-game mirrors(1st mission and Vs apartment). I loled in one of the missions where the nice lady walked to the blurry mirror to check out her face I guess she never turned the mirror on.
So again its one step forward and 2 back.(by the way NPCs are reflected although reduced quality vs RT in puddles with RT off too. I have not checked the glass)

you both just shilled eachother

You are missing the point of what has been posted in here, it's blatantly obvious that RT used properly will be superior but what cyberpunk offers is a mixed bag of inferior SSR and RT is used mostly as a boost in accuracy instead of pure RT features.

Yet everyone can see the difference between RT and raster reflections because it simply easy to see spot. Raster reflections are bad, thats why RT based reflections exist. The whole point of RT is to avoid the graphics quality reduction and limitions of raster reflections like SSR. Its why they use RT in cgi, its not just better but its massively better. Yes you can have the player in the RT reflection but you may remove the players reflection from the BVH structure for performance reasons. From my post above. aside from certain mirrors in the game that use render-to-texture to copy the entire scene into a reflective surface. I wondered why the mirror reflections looked so bad from the RT reflection. Its because they too are raster based reflections.

Of course, there's a lot more to the reflections and this is another key part of the lighting discussion. Cyberpunk uses a range of reflection techniques. On the high-end, ray traced reflections are supported but screen-space reflections are still layered into the scene to further enhance each reflection with additional visual information. On reflective surfaces, ray tracing enables pin sharp reflections that are physically accurate. The way they bend and conform to each surface is effective and you'll be able to enjoy surroundings reflected clear without relying on screen-space information. The only drawback is that your character is omitted from the BVH structure used to generate RT reflections and so your avatar never appears in the shiny surfaces - aside from certain mirrors in the game that use render-to-texture to copy the entire scene into a reflective surface.

God you sound like the not an apple fan channel. Your conclusion is wrong. Cyberpunk 2077 is a hybrid rendering engine. There is a reason for this. See this quote from a book on the subject.

Hybrid rendering combines ray-tracing and rasterization graphics techniques to generate visually accurate photorealistic computer-generated images at a tight real-time frame rate.

Raytracing excels at computing photorealistic images by allowing for reflection and refraction rays. Raytracing enables true global illumination in computer-generated images by imitating how light propagates in the real world. However, tracing rays is very expensive both in terms of energy consumption and render time.

Rasterization on the other hand sacrifices some visual quality for render speed. Rasterized images achieve a relatively high degree of visual accuracy in real-time. Rasterization is primarily used in the video game industry where 60 frames per second rates are needed to achieve smooth gameplay. Raster-based rendering has benefited from the custom-tailored, ever-evolving, hardware architecture of Graphics Processing Units (GPUs).

Recent advances in GPU architecture have incorporated ray-tracing elementsinto current rasterization based GPUs. Graphics Application Program Interface (API) such as NVIDIA’s OptiX [60] or Microsoft’s DirectX Ray-tracing(DXR) expose raytracing capabilities to real-time graphics applications. While the current state of GPU hardware does not yet allow full images to be raytraced in real-time, it appears there will be an industry trend towards combining some form of partial ray-tracing with rasterization based graphics. This combination is typically referred to as hybrid rendering.

One foray into hybrid rendering was done by EA’s Project PICA PICA [7].Raytracing effects such as transparency, translucency, shadows, ambient occlusion,and global illumination were implemented on top of a state-of-the-art commercialgame engine. Unfortunately, the source code is closed source and heavily relies on Microsoft’s DXR API which is a closed source API. While PICA PICA describe show to implement hybrid raytracing algorithmically, it does not allow for detailedprofiling and is, therefore, ill-suited as a tool for academic research.

2.4 Real-Time Raytracing page 15
Real-time raytracing has been the holy grail of graphics since the invention of ray-tracing but remains unachieved (but some people think they are going to do a full path traced game with cyberpunk 2077 like graphics). In this section, we document previous efforts to introduce real-time raytracing and their shortcomings.

book https://dx.doi.org/10.14288/1.0391894
Hybrid rendering : in pursuit of real-time raytracing Demoullin, Francois M. 2020 page 14-15

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

y
You sound like the not an apple fan channel. Your conclusion is wrong.

I've no idea if thats an insult or what.

I am glad you are happy with the hybrid implementation and the fact you won't see your own reflection unless CDPR specifically creates a surface in a confined environment for you.
I'm only mentioning that as it was used as a "plus" for RT against GTA V yet is missing in cyberpunk too.

If all else fails bring out the render and cgi argument despite the fact this is a game and supposed to be in real time but is still a mix of badly pre-rendered with a slight boost quality and a huge performance hit..

 

[ICDP]

They are trying to win arguments nobody is making.

Nobody is claiming RT is not a big leap forward, the point being made is that when RT is disabled in CP2077, the SCR and cube maps are in many cases well below what has already been possible and used in older non-RT games.

Here are some screen space reflections in Hitman 2, a 2 year old non-RT game. This includes the jet-ski animations as it was driven around before being parked up by an NPC and of course Agent 47's animations. So it has been possible for a long time to incorporate animated screen space reflections that "reflect" a decent approximation of the game surroundings.

It has also been possible to have much better and more interactive water physics than is currently shown in CP2077. Hitman 2, Witcher 3, RDR2 all have water that feels far more realistic to both look at and interact with.

RDR 2

Witcher 3 (PS4 version)

 

[zx128k]

I've no idea if thats an insult or what.

I am glad you are happy with the hybrid implementation and the fact you won't see your own reflection unless CDPR specifically creates a surface in a confined environment for you.
I'm only mentioning that as it was used as a "plus" for RT against GTA V yet is missing in cyberpunk too.

If all else fails bring out the render and cgi argument despite the fact this is a game and supposed to be in real time but is still a mix of badly pre-rendered with a slight boost quality and a huge performance hit..

If you had read the book quote or just understood my post. There is NO full image real-time RT game like cyberpunk 2077. That hybrid rendering is the current best rendering method for performance. Not having your charactor in the reflection is normal for raster and gives better performance for RT reflections. None of the reflections are pre-rendered in RT.

cgi renders the full RT image, it does this because its off-line. You don't have to make compromises in quality for real-time performance in a computer game. So you render at the best quality off-line.

 

[zx128k]

They are trying to win arguments nobody is making.

Nobody is claiming RT is not a big leap forward, the point being made is that when RT is disabled in CP2077, the SCR and cube maps are in many cases well below what has already been possible and used in older non-RT games.

Here are some screen space reflections in Hitman 2, a 2 year old non-RT game. This includes the jet-ski animations as it was driven around before being parked up by an NPC and of course Agent 47's animations. So it has been possible for a long time to incorporate animated screen space reflections that "reflect" a decent approximation of the game surroundings.

It has also been possible to have much better and more interactive water physics than is currently shown in CP2077. Hitman 2, Witcher 3, RDR2 all have water that feels far more realistic to both look at and interact with.

RDR 2

Witcher 3 (PS4 version)

You can create your own method of improving reflections but they wont match RT reflections and they have more of a performance cost. In cyberpunk 2077 if you want quality, then you use RT relections.

The best raster reflections I remember were in crysis 2. Realtime Local Reflections for example. Realtime Local Reflections done by approximating ray-traced High Dynamic Range reflections local to specific objects (see video description). Why do this method when you support RT reflections in the game already?

Cryengine 3 - Realtime Local Reflections - Ray-Traced Effect

Vanilla Witcher 3 used SSR https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...ted-game-technologies-in-the-witcher-3.34419/

12) Screen Space Reflections :: Kind of self explanatory. This technology allows reflections to be cast on the surfaces on reflective materials, ie water, glass, metal etcetera. Many games use it in some capacity or another, but very few use SSR for dynamic objects. Most use it only for static objects. From what I've seen of the Witcher 3, it appears to use SSR for both static and dynamic objects, which is very impressive. You can see SSR in action in the 35 minute demo, specifically on the waterways of Novigrad, and in the puddles on the street.

Screen Space Reflections https://overclock3d.net/reviews/software/cyberpunk_2077_performance_review_and_optimisation_guide/8
Screen Space Reflections (SSR) are a huge part of Cyberpunk 2077's visual identity. The world itself is filled with light sources and shiny objects, making reflections a must within the game. That said, the performance impact of SSR is large, making it a key setting to cut if you need more performance. Our recommendation is setting SSR to medium, as this offers gamers a great balance between reflection quality and performance.

Even the best SSR cant match RT reflections. The SSR reflections are at a lower resolution likely for performance reasons. Maybe you can try reshade.

SSR reflections vs RT reflections Control. Same thing, different game. RT reflections look just as good as Cyberpunk 2077 and SSR look just as bad.

 

[Wrinkly]

I think the real reason the player model is missing from reflections is the player model....

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/cyberpunk-2077-third-person-mod-available-for-download/#more-149742

Maybe player reflections will be an option when they add multi-player.

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

If you had read the book quote or just understood my post. There is NO full image real-time RT game like cyberpunk 2077. That hybrid rendering is the current best rendering method for performance. Not having your charactor in the reflection is normal for raster and gives better performance for RT reflections. None of the reflections are pre-rendered in RT.

cgi renders the full RT image, it does this because its off-line. You don't have to make compromises in quality for real-time performance in a computer game. So you render at the best quality off-line.

now you are just shilling yourself.

I think the real reason the player model is missing from reflections is the player model....

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/cyberpunk-2077-third-person-mod-available-for-download/#more-149742

Maybe player reflections will be an option when they add multi-player.

I agree , nobody wants to look at that

 

[ICDP]

You can create your own method of improving reflections but they wont match RT reflections and they have more of a performance cost. In cyberpunk 2077 if you want quality, then you use RT relections.

The best raster reflections I remember were in crysis 2. Realtime Local Reflections for example. Realtime Local Reflections done by approximating ray-traced High Dynamic Range reflections local to specific objects (see video description). Why do this method when you support RT reflections in the game already?

Cryengine 3 - Realtime Local Reflections - Ray-Traced Effect

OK, I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or arguing still? You are asking why do it when you can do it with RT? The answer is because there are far more people our there with non-RT cards who should be at least catered for when it comes to eye candy. Yes RT makes it easier, but that should not mean you do such a shoddy 3rd rate job of it when RT is disabled.

Are you seeing our point yet? Comparing CP2077 RT on/off is not a fair comparison because RT off is so poor in the first place in this particular game. CPDR cut so many corners that the very idea CP2077 is anything close to next gen, apart from using RT is utterly mind boggling.

Animations
Physics
Water
Screen Space Reflections

All of these have regressed compared to what has been possible for years. But bung some RT effects in and people crow about it being "next gen".

 

[Wrinkly]

OK, I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or arguing still? You are asking why do it when you can do it with RT? The answer is because there are far more people our there with non-RT cards who should be at least catered for when it comes to eye candy. Yes RT makes it easier, but that should not mean you do such a shoddy 3rd rate job of it when RT is disabled.

Are you seeing our point yet? Coparing CP2077 RT on/off is not a fair comparison because RT off is so poor in the first place in this particular game. CPDR cut so many corners that the very idea CP2077 is anytinh close to next gen apart from using RT is utterly mind boggling.

I agree, bring back ASCII art

 

[nvidiamd]

yeah looks good, will check it out tonight. Vanilla GTA 5 looks very last gen now, flat lighting, low detail etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvLWjM7Bk90

Yes but compared with CP, GTA5 is a real game.

If you had read the book quote or just understood my post. There is NO full image real-time RT game like cyberpunk 2077. That hybrid rendering is the current best rendering method for performance. Not having your charactor in the reflection is normal for raster and gives better performance for RT reflections. None of the reflections are pre-rendered in RT.

cgi renders the full RT image, it does this because its off-line. You don't have to make compromises in quality for real-time performance in a computer game. So you render at the best quality off-line.

If it is not pre-rendered in RT, then it means that if you destroy something ( for example you break a window, or destroy a building ) you will se that reflected in the game. Can you give some examples of that?

 

[nvidiamd]

Even the best SSR cant match RT reflections. The SSR reflections are at a lower resolution likely for performance reasons. Maybe you can try reshade.

SSR reflections vs RT reflections Control. Same thing, different game. RT reflections look just as good as Cyberpunk 2077 and SSR look just as bad.

Control is so fake it was already been proven that most of what you see is not real time ray traced. If you can destroy the floor but still see it as good as new in the reflections, that is not the best example of good reflections. Well at least they show you your character but i guess that when you have a predefined character it is easier to fake the reflections, when you make it custom it is more harder, that's why there is a mod where you can see somehow your character being reflected in CP but you won't see the head.

 

[Rroff]

One of the problems you have with reflections and games is how much special casing is required with traditional techniques - you end up with implementations that are only suited to very specific usage and need a whole lot of testing for every instance they are used in. For a game like CP2077 with the broad areas where reflections can be used and being a scenario where lots of shiny surfaces are suited to the theme it is simpler to keep them a bit blurry so the errors aren't easily noticeable.

With a decent ray tracing implementation any surface at any angle can reflect the world without special casing and without extensive testing for every instance.

 

[Rroff]

that's why there is a mod where you can see somehow your character being reflected in CP but you won't see the head.

Shadows are also a bit LOL with characters in CP - the player character's shadow is cast from basically a mannequin without clothing or hair, etc. that matches what you have on.

Shadows from a lot of stuff in CP aren't ray-traced either, no matter the settings, they are projected into the scene using imposters, etc. and can have a lot of issues with contact hardening and other effects at times. At best they reference some ray tracing results to slight modify them - I think only certain static objects have any ray traced shadows at all.

EDIT: This is one of the issues though with games that support both non-RT and RT techniques - traditionally shadows are mostly cast into the scene as a dark silhouette darkening the area they contact whereas ray tracing properly done light the scene except areas which would be in shadow.

 

[nvidiamd]

One of the problems you have with reflections and games is how much special casing is required with traditional techniques - you end up with implementations that are only suited to very specific usage and need a whole lot of testing for every instance they are used in. For a game like CP2077 with the broad areas where reflections can be used and being a scenario where lots of shiny surfaces are suited to the theme it is simpler to keep them a bit blurry so the errors aren't easily noticeable.

With a decent ray tracing implementation any surface at any angle can reflect the world without special casing and without extensive testing for every instance.

Interesting thing i've seen in a LowSpecGamer video that the game has something called SSPR or Screen Space Planar Reflections. A technique some game used in the past for nice looking reflections.
I wonder if someone can disable that thing in the game and then look at the "ray traced" reflections and see how good they are.
Here is the video from LowSpecGamer:

And here is an example for SSPR being used to create better reflections:
http://remi-genin.fr/blog/screen-space-plane-indexed-reflection-in-ghost-recon-wildlands/