Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra performance

[zx128k]

Control is so fake it was already been proven that most of what you see is not real time ray traced. If you can destroy the floor but still see it as good as new in the reflections, that is not the best example of good reflections. Well at least they show you your character but i guess that when you have a predefined character it is easier to fake the reflections, when you make it custom it is more harder, that's why there is a mod where you can see somehow your character being reflected in CP but you won't see the head.

Control is fake, its a computer game. Thus not real. You stated it is proven, please proved proof. Control is a hybrid RT engine. There are no full image RT rendered games like Control atm that run in real time. There are baked shadow and other performance optimizations in Control. This is to be expect from a real time renderer. This was pointed out by me above, sourcing a book about the subject. Hybrid rendering uses raster. Your whole statement is a waste of time.

 

[zx128k]

now you are just shilling yourself.




I agree , nobody wants to look at that

Remember I got that from a book source and posted that source here. That arthor is an expert and yet you cant agree with him. Guess whos wrong.

 

[zx128k]

OK, I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or arguing still? You are asking why do it when you can do it with RT? The answer is because there are far more people our there with non-RT cards who should be at least catered for when it comes to eye candy. Yes RT makes it easier, but that should not mean you do such a shoddy 3rd rate job of it when RT is disabled.

Are you seeing our point yet? Comparing CP2077 RT on/off is not a fair comparison because RT off is so poor in the first place in this particular game. CPDR cut so many corners that the very idea CP2077 is anything close to next gen, apart from using RT is utterly mind boggling.

Animations
Physics
Water
Screen Space Reflections

All of these have regressed compared to what has been possible for years. But bung some RT effects in and people crow about it being "next gen".

Raster reflections suck. RT reflections are modeled reflections based on the way the real world works, thats why RT reflection look so good and why raster reflections suck but they dont model the real world at all. Thats to whole reason to use RT reflections, they are modeled using the mathematics that models real world reflections. So they look amazing. Arguing against that is pointless.

 

[nvidiamd]

You stated it is proven, please proved proof. Control is a hybrid RT engine. There are no full RT rendered image game like Control that run in real time. Your whole statement is ignorance.

The floor gets destroyed but you won't see that in the reflection. Also the table has bullet holes in in but you won't see that in the reflection. This mean no real time reflection, only the body and some rocks are real time reflected. The rest is so fake it makes you laugh.

 

[Rroff]

There are no full image RT rendered games like Control atm that run in real time. There are baked shadow and other performance optimizations in Control. This is to be expect from a real time renderer. This was pointed out by me above, sourcing a book about the subject. Hybrid rendering uses raster. Your whole statement is a waste of time.

Quake 2 RTX has full real time reflections using RT.

EDIT: Sure it isn't a full screen, full scene ray tracer in the purest sense but as far as gaming goes that doesn't really matter.

 

[chris85oc]

The floor gets destroyed but you won't see that in the reflection. Also the table has bullet holes in in but you won't see that in the reflection. This mean no real time reflection, only the body and some rocks are real time reflected. The rest is so fake it makes you laugh.

RT isnt fake in control. You guys are going at it for a month at it pretending you know what you’re talking about... sheesh.

The floor ‘destruction’ is a decal just like the bullet decals. Decals are extempt from RT in this case due to how they are rendered in the pipeline. Just like other post effects. Can also be due to performance obviously, but that doesnt make RT fake. Just like its not fake in spiderman miles morales where shadows arent rendered, or the objects in reflections have a lower lod or any other RT ‘optimization’ takes place.

As for cyberpunk the problem with the character model has been its animations from the start. Most modders know the biggest issue with translating a 1st person model with animations optimized for it looks like **** if you use the same for 3rd person. Thats why most games that have both 1st and 3rd pers use different animations for each mode ( eg: fallout, skyrim etc )

Now obviously with RT reflections you’d see all the weird looking animations reflected everywhere when your character does anything just like in that 3rd person mod. Has nothing to do with performance or any other mumbo jumbo you come up with. Also mirror reflections arent done via RT but re-rendering the scene, like in hitman or other games that some of you have posted.

Also another thing, you’re talking up those bioshock / hitman etc reflections but you dont even understand the limitations. Let me help you. You get 50 % perf loss for each rerendering of the scene. That means only one surface reflecting. You cant have multiple surfaces or each will drop perf by another 50%. So in CP or watch dogs legion in which most surfaces / materials reflect, even slightly ( roughness cutout), that technique would freeze the game, you’d have 0.1 fps on a 3090. There are other limitations too but this is the most obvious.

Id love it if people got informed when they talked about things but its the age of opinions, rise of the 5g and microchippin bill gates after all rite?

 

[nvidiamd]

RT isnt fake in control. You guys are going at it for a month at it pretending you know what you’re talking about... sheesh.

The floor ‘destruction’ is a decal just like the bullet decals. Decals are extempt from RT in this case due to how they are rendered in the pipeline. Just like other post effects. Can also be due to performance obviously, but that doesnt make RT fake. Just like its not fake in spiderman miles morales where shadows arent rendered, or the objects in reflections have a lower lod or any other RT ‘optimization’ takes place.

It looks fake to me if what you see in the reflection is not what you see inside the room. We can find as many excuses as we want, in the end, what is real time reflected in there is the body and some rocks. Is it worth the performance loss? Is that realism or at least something to brag with?

 

[Pete @r...]

The game looks good and RT is the future, but when you turn RT off in THIS game, the graphics in THIS game are very mediocre. What percentage of people actually will have an RT capable card, I think a very small proportion, so not the best graphical game for the vast majority of gamers

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

Remember I got that from a book source and posted that source here. That arthor is an expert and yet you cant agree with him. Guess whos wrong.

Well your source does not reflect what you are trying to say. You just have a pre-baked opinion. So I guess you are wrong.

 

[ICDP]

Raster reflections suck. RT reflections are modeled reflections based on the way the real world works, thats why RT reflection look so good and why raster reflections suck but they dont model the real world at all. Thats to whole reason to use RT reflections, they are modeled using the mathematics that models real world reflections. So they look amazing. Arguing against that is pointless.

OK, again you have missed my very simple point. I agree RT is a much better way of doing reflections and shadows etc (performance permitting). But let's remove RT from the entire equation and look at the traditional methods used in CP2077. So don't mention RT, or even think of RT to answer this very simple question.

Do you think CDPR used the best traditional methods possible for simulating reflective surfaces? Look at RDR2 water reflections, look at the Hitman 2 window reflections etc and answer truthfully. Before you say "CP2077" is open world, so is RDR2.

Or to put it another way. Could CDPR have utilised better traditional rasterisation methods to show reflective surfaces in their game with RT disabled?

If the answer is yes (or even maybe) then that is my point. CP2077 looks sub-par when using traditional rasterisation methods, in comparison to what could be possible and has been done previously.

Developers should not use RT as a crutch and excuse to do a sub-par job with their traditional non RT graphics.

 

[Wrinkly]

[Developer/FeatureToggles]
ScreenSpacePlanarReflection = 0

It looks fake to me if what you see in the reflection is not what you see inside the room. We can find as many excuses as we want, in the end, what is real time reflected in there is the body and some rocks. Is it worth the performance loss? Is that realism or at least something to brag with?

It's not the RT that's fake, it's the legacy rasterisation that is used for performance along side RT that is fake.

You see a 3D world made of lots of triangles tagged with a material and offset that are used together to form the image. The problem is that the bullet holes you see are not made of the same triangles, but instead are simple pictures known as a decal or sprite. These decals are placed on top of the world's surface and scaled to size to give the illusion of a bullet hole. Since they don't physically alter the world then they are not entered in to what is known as a BVH structure, the BVH structure being how the RT engine views the world. Technically bullet holes could be created from triangles and coded to alter the geometry during their lifespan, but that would take a performance hit for something that really is only viewed in the peripheral vision. Yes, in screen shots or videos we look in great detail at such things, but during gameplay our attention is directed elsewhere.

 

[Nexus18]

OK, again you have missed my very simple point. I agree RT is a much better way of doing reflections and shadows etc (performance permitting). But let's remove RT from the entire equation and look at the traditional methods used in CP2077. So don't mention RT, or even think of RT to answer this very simple question.

Do you think CDPR used the best traditional methods possible for simulating reflective surfaces? Look at RDR2 water reflections, look at the Hitman 2 window reflections etc and answer truthfully. Before you say "CP2077" is open world, so is RDR2.

Or to put it another way. Could CDPR have utilised better traditional rasterisation methods to show reflective surfaces in their game with RT disabled?

If the answer is yes (or even maybe) then that is my point. CP2077 looks sub-par when using traditional rasterisation methods, in comparison to what could be possible and has been done previously.

Developers should not use RT as a crutch and excuse to do a sub-par job with their traditional non RT graphics.

 

[Rroff]

It's not the RT that's fake, it's the legacy rasterisation that is used for performance along side RT that is fake.

You see a 3D world made of lots of triangles tagged with a material and offset that are used together to form the image. The problem is that the bullet holes you see are not made of the same triangles, but instead are simple pictures known as a decal or sprite. These decals are placed on top of the world's surface and scaled to size to give the illusion of a bullet hole. Since they don't physically alter the world then they are not entered in to what is known as a BVH structure, the BVH structure being how the RT engine views the world. Technically bullet holes could be created from triangles and coded to alter the geometry during their lifespan, but that would take a performance hit for something that really is only viewed in the peripheral vision. Yes, in screen shots or videos we look in great detail at such things, but during gameplay our attention is directed elsewhere.

Interesting take on that - the screenshot I provided earlier with ugly looking bullet marks* - Quake 2 doesn't natively have an implementation for decals - while modding the RTX version I have stuck to the separate game logic code (gamex86.dll) so far as the main executable is constantly being updated by the developer and I don't have the time at the moment to go about merging 100s of changes on a frequent basis whereas they rarely touch the game logic - so my bullet impacts use old school approach of generating a new object (entity) and testing the geometry on the CPU using a small number of ray picks** and placing an impact mesh where appropriate for size rather than a fragment shader on the GPU.

I'm not sure with the current Quake 2 RTX implementation whether if I did them like newer games using a shader/GPU based decal system whether they'd be included in the structure used for reflections or not.

The game however does accurately reflect the real game world in high resolution including anything currently rendered in the engine up to a reflection/refraction depth of 8 (default 2).


* They render correctly on the non-RT renderer but the RT renderer currently doesn't handle a certain transparency flag due to the way they've implemented materials to save development time - the alpha channel on the base layer is used to control roughness.

** This is done entirely in game logic rather than rendering code :s (interesting side note - this is done with 4 picks - one the original hit and 3 additional tests which I found using a certain pattern actually gets it around 80-90% correct to prevent badly placed impact marks without more costly analysis of the geometry)

 

[nvidiamd]

It's not the RT that's fake, it's the legacy rasterisation that is used for performance along side RT that is fake.

You see a 3D world made of lots of triangles tagged with a material and offset that are used together to form the image. The problem is that the bullet holes you see are not made of the same triangles, but instead are simple pictures known as a decal or sprite. These decals are placed on top of the world's surface and scaled to size to give the illusion of a bullet hole. Since they don't physically alter the world then they are not entered in to what is known as a BVH structure, the BVH structure being how the RT engine views the world. Technically bullet holes could be created from triangles and coded to alter the geometry during their lifespan, but that would take a performance hit for something that really is only viewed in the peripheral vision. Yes, in screen shots or videos we look in great detail at such things, but during gameplay our attention is directed elsewhere.

Sorry i thought the bullet holes are real i didn't knew they are simple pictures.
If what we see in the scene does not match with what we see in the reflection, then the whole discussion about realism is futile. If RT can't do that, the devs should use other rendering techniques on top or instead of ray tracing.
You see DF making a big deal about a shadow or how a light is better reflected when ray traced. But you don't see them talking about this problem, that you can modify the scene where the game allows it (even with simple pictures like bullet holes ) and you won't see these things reflected.

 

[Wrinkly]

Sorry i thought the bullet holes are real i didn't knew they are simple pictures.
If what we see in the scene does not match with what we see in the reflection, then the whole discussion about realism is futile. If RT can't do that, the devs should use other rendering techniques on top or instead of ray tracing.
You see DF making a big deal about a shadow or how a light is better reflected when ray traced. But you don't see them talking about this problem, that you can modify the scene where the game allows it (even with simple pictures like bullet holes ) and you won't see these things reflected.

RT can only reflect what it's told exists in the scene. For bullet holes to be reflected then the game engine has to detail the bullet holes in the same way as the rest of the geometry and then pass that detail to the RT engine. Within your example the game engine keeps the bullet holes secret for, I imagine, performance reasons.

 

[Rroff]

Sorry i thought the bullet holes are real i didn't knew they are simple pictures.
If what we see in the scene does not match with what we see in the reflection, then the whole discussion about realism is futile. If RT can't do that, the devs should use other rendering techniques on top or instead of ray tracing.
You see DF making a big deal about a shadow or how a light is better reflected when ray traced. But you don't see them talking about this problem, that you can modify the scene where the game allows it (even with simple pictures like bullet holes ) and you won't see these things reflected.

I think people vastly underestimate the impact things like specular reflections, etc. have when done via RT versus even best effort with traditional techniques - even if it isn't fully reflecting all elements of a scene. Unfortunately I'm still learning a lot of stuff about this while playing in Quake 2 RTX so still haven't got my head around avoiding some of the noise issues that are inherent to path tracing with a relatively low ray budget or I'd release something that showed off the renderer better than the Quake 2 stock maps does - it is really quite amazing what they've achieved with the implementation in Quake 2 RTX.

 

[zx128k]

OK, again you have missed my very simple point. I agree RT is a much better way of doing reflections and shadows etc (performance permitting). But let's remove RT from the entire equation and look at the traditional methods used in CP2077. So don't mention RT, or even think of RT to answer this very simple question.

Do you think CDPR used the best traditional methods possible for simulating reflective surfaces? Look at RDR2 water reflections, look at the Hitman 2 window reflections etc and answer truthfully. Before you say "CP2077" is open world, so is RDR2.

Or to put it another way. Could CDPR have utilised better traditional rasterisation methods to show reflective surfaces in their game with RT disabled?

If the answer is yes (or even maybe) then that is my point. CP2077 looks sub-par when using traditional rasterisation methods, in comparison to what could be possible and has been done previously.

Developers should not use RT as a crutch and excuse to do a sub-par job with their traditional non RT graphics.

The methods are no different from Control and look more or less the same. SSR suck. Each game can use a custom method and pay a performacne cost for doing so. I gave an example for crytek. https://youtu.be/FujNY_pHWHg Realtime Local Reflections. The more quality the more performacne you lose. With RT reflections there is at least hardware on the gpu to speed things up. You can even re-render the whole scene and use that for a reflection. Use images as reflections.

Hitman 2 reflections https://youtu.be/qx6LieL8Qjc?t=185 window reflections look as blurred as cyberpunk 2077 and control. Hitman 2 is likely capturing the scene with another camera and rendering that out to a texture. Then using that as reflections. This is an old school way of doing reflections and is very expensive performance wise.

https://imgeself.github.io/posts/2020-06-19-graphics-study-rdr2/

Red Dead Redemption

Water rendering and reflections
I won't be covering water rendering in this post because it deserves a special blog post. But I want to talk a little bit about reflections:

• Like previously mentioned, environment maps are the main source of reflections. For general reflections like window reflections, the game uses them.
• Mirrors, on the other hand, are rendered with planar reflections where you render the scene again from the direction of the reflection. This process is handled with deferred rendering also.

• Water reflections use screen space reflections combined with the environment map that generated at the beginning of the frame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_graphics) see Screen space reflections (SSR) traces reflection rays in screen space (as opposed to world space in e.g. ray tracing.

 

[Rroff]

This is pretty cool (if you know what to look for):



Not only is the blaster effect reflected in the various surfaces but they are also reflecting the reflection of it in other nearby surfaces! (i.e. the chrome on the chairs is both reflecting it from the world but also the mirror and vice versa)

 

[Pete @r...]

The methods are no different from Control and look more or less the same. SSR suck. Each game can use a custom method and pay a performacne cost for doing so. I gave an example for crytek. https://youtu.be/FujNY_pHWHg Realtime Local Reflections. The more quality the more performacne you lose. With RT reflections there is at least hardware on the gpu to speed things up. You can even re-render the whole scene and use that for a reflection. Use images as reflections.

Hitman 2 reflections https://youtu.be/qx6LieL8Qjc?t=185 window reflections look as blurred as cyberpunk 2077 and control. Hitman 2 is likely capturing the scene with another camera and rendering that out to a texture. Then using that as reflections. This is an old school way of doing reflections and is very expensive performance wise.

https://imgeself.github.io/posts/2020-06-19-graphics-study-rdr2/

Red Dead Redemption

So do you think this game without RT on, for the majority of gamers, is graphically as good as older games mentioned

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

So do you think this game without RT on, for the majority of gamers, is graphically as good as older games mentioned

You want get a straight answer from him. He will even ignore statements in a quoted post if it is inconvenient as proven in his response to me earlier in this thread