Declining attitude to law and order

[dowie]

Not sure if this one got posted but it popped up on my FB newsfeed recently - this guy is so brazen and seemingly not intimidated at all by the police that rather than run off like his fellow robber he decided to go towards the police car and attempt to play real life GTA:

Fortunately the guy was caught, he's now been sentenced to 14 years:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/astonishing-moment-masked-thug-owen-15351707

An armed robber who dragged a police officer out of a patrol car and threw her to the ground while ransacking a Tesco Express has been jailed for 14 years.

Owen Smith was handed the sentence at Hove Crown Court on Tuesday, Sussex Police said.
The unemployed 29-year-old, of no fixed address, previously admitted assault by beating a police constable, possession of a baseball bat as an offensive weapon, robbery and taking a police vehicle without consent, the force said.

 

[StriderX]

The unemployed 29-year-old

Sounds like poverty to me, mind you i don't believe its 100% the fault of poverty, there are still sociopaths out there that just don't care and those that have stopped caring for lack of purpose/effort.

When you have a significant group of people with no future and no leadership, they're just going to do whatever they want because consequence doesn't matter to them, not even death for the most part.

That leadership is coming fast in the image of fascist quasi-nazi's (who say they aren't mysteriously), poverty is their breeding ground and we'll be inundated in short order. Another source of potential for belligerence is the massive increase in homeless, i won't be surprised if they end up becoming easy recruits as weapons.

 

[Dis86]

Can someone explain to me why being poor is now seemingly justification for committing crime to those with left-wing viewpoints?

 

[Freakbro]

Can someone explain to me why being poor is now seemingly justification for committing crime to those with left-wing viewpoints?

Why do you think to explain or understand the reasons for something is the same as justifying them?

 

[explicit4u]

Can someone explain to me why being poor is now seemingly justification for committing crime to those with left-wing viewpoints?

It’s not justification, it’s part of the root cause that needs dealing with.

Labelling them scum and advocating for heavier punishments is short sighted (although tbf some sentences are a bit of a joke) and does nothing to address the reasons people turn to crime.

There’s two threads on this in GD with one calling for heavier punishments and one saying black boys commit crimes cause their fathers are all in prison..... Address the reasons people turn to crime and you stop the cycle.

 

[kedge]

Address the reasons people turn to crime and you stop the cycle.

If world leaders can't end all these problems then who can?

 

[h4rm0ny]

That isn't what you initially said. You questioned policing priorities, those are set by the police.

I don't believe this is so. For one example, political interference has removed police discretion whenever something is labelled a Hate Crime. Hence the recent case of police being forced to pursue a case with an old woman who had been berated by another person at a petrol station because the latter person said the lady beeped her horn 'because I am Black'. I've no doubt police officers could reel off a number of examples of where priorities have been set by the government. And as I understand it officers go through a separate academy to the rank and file. Proceed straight to Sergeant. Do not Pass Constable. So in another sense as well, priorities are not set by actual police with day to day experience of actual policing.

 

[Dis86]

It’s not justification, it’s part of the root cause that needs dealing with.

Labelling them scum and advocating for heavier punishments is short sighted (although tbf some sentences are a bit of a joke) and does nothing to address the reasons people turn to crime.

There’s two threads on this in GD with one calling for heavier punishments and one saying black boys commit crimes cause their fathers are all in prison..... Address the reasons people turn to crime and you stop the cycle.

Being poor is not a reason. Think of how any people live in or below the breadline yet manage to not commit crime.
These guys aren't in that situation. They're not stealing to survive.

 

[Dis86]

Why do you think to explain or understand the reasons for something is the same as justifying them?

Because the way people phrase it it's used as an excuse. See my response to explicit as to why I also think it's a complete fallacy as to it being a reason.

 

[ianh]

A male officer got set upon by two chavs and because his female partner was as much use as a chocolate fireguard they're now blaming the public.

Aside from the "Should the public risk themselves to help Police?" discussion, I watched the video and can't understand what she's doing other than being more of a hindrance to the other PC than a help and I can't help but wonder that if it had been two male PC's would the 2nd officer have had the same reaction to physical confrontation as this female officer has? I mean it shouldn't as all Police are trained to deal with physical situations but I just can't help but feel that the female officer let her colleague down here.

 

[MookJong]

Everyone knows this is a moral and cultural problem not a poverty problem. Saying it is poverty does a great disservice to a great many people who are struggling to survive but do not steal, intimidate or use violence.

Stop wearing stupid tracksuits, listening and idolising morally questionable people and music scenes like drill, trap and hip-hop. Read a book....

We need to laugh at these "gangster" adults wearing sportswear without sports or a gym in sight. This lifestyle has been completely legitimised and promoted as cool by the BBC and others. It is an alien culture that clearly isn't working very well for more than a handful of rappers.

 

[Freakbro]

Being poor is not a reason. Think of how any people live in or below the breadline yet manage to not commit crime.
These guys aren't in that situation. They're not stealing to survive.

Because the way people phrase it it's used as an excuse. See my response to explicit as to why I also think it's a complete fallacy as to it being a reason.

I don't agree with your reasoning that it's a complete fallacy though, the evidence is overwhelming that "poverty" leads to higher rates of crime. That doesn't mean it's a binary correlation as you are seeing it though, there are many other aspects to "poverty" than just not having money meaning you steal to survive. Lower educational standards, disfunctional homelife, lower opportunities leading to lower aspirations and expectations, less positive social support networks are just some of the other socioeconmic factors that have a greater prevelance in poor areas.

And that's not to say everyone who is poor will be a criminal of course not, the same way that very rich people with all the priviledge and opportunities in the world can still be criminals. We are talking percentages and probability.

And no-one says "Oh well, you were poor, we will let you off the crime because it's not your fault" - the person still needs to be punished for their actions (though understanding the factors causing said actions can be used to determine the level of punishment) but understanding the drivers allows you to try and tackle them to reduce the incidents of crime in the future.

 

[asim18]

Being poor is not a reason. Think of how any people live in or below the breadline yet manage to not commit crime.
These guys aren't in that situation. They're not stealing to survive.

You are completely right when you say other poor people don't steal. Being poor is not the only thing, you always seem to just look at one variable in a one dimensional thought process.

Being poor is one thing, being content with what you have is another thing, and what causes the motivation to actually take more.

Obviously if someone who is capable of killing and hurting other human beings, inherits all their daddy's wealth then such person will probably die from too much coke and hookers before he feels the need to do a bank job or whatever.

People like you or me, we are content with what we have (well I hope you are). A criminal who has probably been bullying people since childhood, and always wanting things which belong to others + being inherently poor, is the cause.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Being poor is not a reason. Think of how any people live in or below the breadline yet manage to not commit crime.
These guys aren't in that situation. They're not stealing to survive.

This isn't addressed specifically you, your comment is just a good jumping on point.

I think the issues around talking about poverty and crime association work in two directions. One is that it IS used sometimes as an excuse and a way to remove personal responsibility. I've been very hard up (no money for food, living on people's sofas, literally losing weight due to lack of food). I never shoplifted, let alone worse. Maybe, in extreme circumstances people are reduced to that but frankly it's rare in this country and certainly not applicable to the vast majority of criminals. So yes, going "but they're poor" is a denial of personal responsibility and it's frequently done by those who wish to place blame on those in power rather than those who commit crime.

Where it's equally wrong is to use the association to damn certain groups. Middle class people don't shop lift (usually). Is that because they are more moral or because the risk-reward is different? A criminal conviction can ruin your career. Particularly in the early stages. Less so if you're unemployed or your career is unskilled cash-in-hand jobs. Similarly, if you want a jacket, you can buy it if you really want. Simply put, the proportional cost to obeying the law and the proportional rewards for doing so are all off compared to if you're poor. Who is to say which income bracket are the more moral, ultimately? Hard to say because moral and law-abiding are not the same thing. Some of the most two-faced, self-serving individuals I've ever met in my life have probably never broken a law in their life. Why? Because they get more out of not doing so and came from money. A senior police officer I heard once said "The law isn't there to stop criminals from breaking it, it's there to stop the non-criminals breaking it". That's a bit circular but I'm sure you understand what he meant.

Now is there something that skews poor people to be more criminal? Yes, generationally. If you have fewer educational opportunities, poorer diet as a child, live in an area where crime is normalised, it will edge you towards committing crimes. But that's nothing that diminishes personal responsibility as far as I'm concerned. Morality has to be something that works when it's hard as well as when it's easy. Or else morality is meaningless.

 

[MookJong]

It's not just shoplifting though is it, the latest video to do the rounds shows a lad perform a running flying kick on a female police officer. What has that got to do with not being able to afford some trainers or a jacket.

The guy filming just laughs it off and makes no attempt to help. These people are morally bankrupt.

 

[Roar87]

It's not just shoplifting though is it, the latest video to do the rounds shows a lad perform a running flying kick on a female police officer. What has that got to do with not being able to afford some trainers or a jacket.

The guy filming just laughs it off and makes no attempt to help. These people are morally bankrupt.

If someone did that in the 70's they'd be lucky to make it to intensive care

 

[TheVoice]

I don't believe this is so. For one example, political interference has removed police discretion whenever something is labelled a Hate Crime. Hence the recent case of police being forced to pursue a case with an old woman who had been berated by another person at a petrol station because the latter person said the lady beeped her horn 'because I am Black'. I've no doubt police officers could reel off a number of examples of where priorities have been set by the government.

A force's own priorities will tie in with national policing priorities as well as the local ones for their community. How they develop those into a policing plan is up to each force to decide.

And as I understand it officers go through a separate academy to the rank and file. Proceed straight to Sergeant. Do not Pass Constable. So in another sense as well, priorities are not set by actual police with day to day experience of actual policing.

Not sure what you mean there, you can't join the police as a Sgt. Aside from the Direct Entry schemes for senior levels, everyone goes through the same initial training.

 

[Dis86]

You are completely right when you say other poor people don't steal. Being poor is not the only thing, you always seem to just look at one variable in a one dimensional thought process.

Being poor is one thing, being content with what you have is another thing, and what causes the motivation to actually take more.

Obviously if someone who is capable of killing and hurting other human beings, inherits all their daddy's wealth then such person will probably die from too much coke and hookers before he feels the need to do a bank job or whatever.

People like you or me, we are content with what we have (well I hope you are). A criminal who has probably been bullying people since childhood, and always wanting things which belong to others + being inherently poor, is the cause.

You're missing my point. I'm not the one looking at it in a one dimensional point of view. My very point is that being poor is not an excuse. There are other factors. So when people use being poor as being justification or reason for committing a crime they're wrong to do so.

It's not just about stealing which is what you're breaking it down to. Theft was just one example. You talk about them wanting to take things that belong to others but it's not even that. Take a look at any mo-ped theft video, the perps will always be wearing £100 trainers. They're committing these crimes for status. Whether that status is their reputation amongst other scumbags or through displays of wealth. Their whole perception of life is so distorted that to them they've got to have expensive clothes, watches, cars to show that they're a worthy person. It doesn't matter to them that they haven't earned them. As long as they've got them on display.

I can entirely understand people stealing to survive. I empathise with it. However I think there are few, if any, in this country who need to do that. Despite the best efforts of our ruling class.

 

[Dis86]

I don't agree with your reasoning that it's a complete fallacy though, the evidence is overwhelming that "poverty" leads to higher rates of crime. That doesn't mean it's a binary correlation as you are seeing it though, there are many other aspects to "poverty" than just not having money meaning you steal to survive. Lower educational standards, disfunctional homelife, lower opportunities leading to lower aspirations and expectations, less positive social support networks are just some of the other socioeconmic factors that have a greater prevelance in poor areas.

And that's not to say everyone who is poor will be a criminal of course not, the same way that very rich people with all the priviledge and opportunities in the world can still be criminals. We are talking percentages and probability.

And no-one says "Oh well, you were poor, we will let you off the crime because it's not your fault" - the person still needs to be punished for their actions (though understanding the factors causing said actions can be used to determine the level of punishment) but understanding the drivers allows you to try and tackle them to reduce the incidents of crime in the future.

You're close to my point but not quite there. Yes studies link poverty and crime. I believe that these studies are largely missing the point though. People are not committing these crimes because they're poor. As you say - many poor people don't commit crimes.

I believe these people are poor for the same reasons that they commit crimes. Two branches from the same stem.

We keep hearing the same crap touted that "no wonder these kids are turning to crime, they're from poor backgrounds and have no hope" etc. etc. It's rubbish. The reason they're turning to crime are crap upbringing, crap morals, crap or absent role models. These are the things that need to be tackled.

 

[h4rm0ny]

A force's own priorities will tie in with national policing priorities as well as the local ones for their community. How they develop those into a policing plan is up to each force to decide.

That's a lot of words to say "I can't correct you because you're right".