Declining attitude to law and order

[chrcoluk]

Its closer to respect than simply not caring.

e.g. you respect the rules of your work place because of fear of losing your job otherwise.

I was once stopped by the police about 2am walking back to my property from the cash machine.

What did I do? I answered all their questions, and was eventually told to move on. I didnt start shouting "Am I been detained", and been evasive.

 

[dowie]

Having studied hypnosis, NLP does overlap with it a lot. Saying so doesn't make someone a loon.

But this Brian Gerrish chap is saying a bit more than that, he's seemingly attributing anything and everything he's seen as manipulative in some way to NLP. It is the sort of paranoia you get with CT types.

NLP trainers etc.. are themselves often borderline loons, they sort of have to be in order to promote pseudoscience/woo to the extent that some of them do. I remember encountering one at work years ago during a grad scheme, he gave the example of Derren Brown as an NLP practitioner, while he's previously studied both hypnosis and NLP he's rather critical of NLP and certainly doesn't claim to use it (in fact a lot of what he does are simply magic tricks with the idea of psychological manipulation there as misdirection for the audience) yet various NLP types seem to cite Derren Brown for some reason.

 

[asim18]

Having studied hypnosis, NLP does overlap with it a lot. Saying so doesn't make someone a loon.

For someone obviously fairly intelligent, you do seem very gullible for CT nonsense.

NLP in itself is not a conspiracy. Be careful of people who use their closed mind to irrationally deny all mechanisms of brainwashing and call everything to do with cognitive sciences "pseudoscience". These same people completely discredit and deny the entire life research of people like Noam Chomsky, totally unreasonably, under "pseudoscience". It's laughable really, they deny the entire works of professors, just because some people start trying to make money using NLP trainings etc. What a disgraceful argument, simply full of low level denial... According to these people's logic and definition, things like CBT, would also fall under "pseudoscience", even though practitioners of CBT have helped countless millions.



Now let me give you my personal reasoned thoughts on NLP:

Firstly, do not get your definition of NLP from the Wikipedia article for NLP its very conflated with people using it to make money.

Read the article for neurolinguistics and psycholinguisics, without the "programming" bit. Once you have understood the mechanisms of "neurolinguistics" and psycholinguistics, without the "programming", then you can sort of get an idea of what sort of brainwashing may be possible using these mechanisms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurolinguistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycholinguistics


Just to keep it basic and literal....

Neuro-linguistic. To me this just means that language can affect the neural. See all animals have sensory abilities, these senses affect how the brain forms connections. For example, some people may have a fear of loud noises lets call this a "neuro-auditory" mechanism. Some people's moods are affected by light, lets just call this a "neuro-visual" mechanism. For some people, touch might evoke some sort of response in the brain, we can call this a "neuro-tactile" mechanism.

Now, because humans can also process language, there is a mechanism for "neuro-linguistics".

This is simply the research of the connection of language, with the brain or the mind.

 

[GGizmo]

I think if one or two nutcases join a group and start extrapolating that in their own way, that shouldn't discourage the original meaning. The question does need to be asked why are all these government bodies using the common purpose group for 'training'. This is an outside body that is being paid out of public funds. At the very least we have a right to at least question why its there, and is it value for money especially with the overall financial situation with the police at the moment.


But getting back to the thread subject, just read this today: https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/21/poli...trol-and-crime-is-solved-on-facebook-8161703/

Vigilantes patrol the streets of this coastal town of 92,000 people as police have ‘given up’. Police cars and control rooms sit empty in Hartlepool, County Durham, where locals solve their own crimes on Facebook as there are not enough officers. Cleveland Police have been hit hard by cuts since austerity measures were introduced by George Osborne eight years ago.

I noticed yesterday the police response to the incident that was videod that they struggled to subdue a suspect wasn't to be demanding more resources for the police, but was for people to stop filming it. That particular person is more concerned with breaching peoples right to film in a public place rather than making a stronger case for more police resources.

There are quite a few people I know these days that have left the police.

 

[chrcoluk]

I will offer a bit of insight into my comments about child discipline.

I have no shame in saying I was heavily bullied at school, out of dozens of teachers, only one ever did anything about it, and then was promptly told off by the headmaster for doing so.

In terms of crime done against me as an adult or witnessed by myself, the majority of it was committed by children (under 16 years of age). A lot of people see children as little darlings, but in my world they not quite like that.

Things I have witnessed all done by children.

Setting wheelie bins on fire
Breaking windows
Robbing pensioners in the street
Shoplifting
Smashing windows on buses and properties
Joyriding (yes children round here break into cars and drive them around).
Anti Social behaviour - riding motorbikes at full rev up and down road for several hours a day often at night, loud ghetto blasters in residential areas, shouting and mocking passers by, threatening pensioners.

I have witnessed adult crimes but in turns of volume they pale in comparison.

The problem age group seems to be 13-16, old enough to know how to be dicks, but too young for law enforcement to do anything to them. Also a lot of cyber crime is carried out by juveniles as well.

 

[krooton]

I will offer a bit of insight into my comments about child discipline.

I have no shame in saying I was heavily bullied at school, out of dozens of teachers, only one ever did anything about it, and then was promptly told off by the headmaster for doing so.

In terms of crime done against me as an adult or witnessed by myself, the majority of it was committed by children (under 16 years of age). A lot of people see children as little darlings, but in my world they not quite like that.

Things I have witnessed all done by children.

Setting wheelie bins on fire
Breaking windows
Robbing pensioners in the street
Shoplifting
Smashing windows on buses and properties
Joyriding (yes children round here break into cars and drive them around).
Anti Social behaviour - riding motorbikes at full rev up and down road for several hours a day often at night, loud ghetto blasters in residential areas, shouting and mocking passers by, threatening pensioners.

I have witnessed adult crimes but in turns of volume they pale in comparison.

The problem age group seems to be 13-16, old enough to know how to be dicks, but too young for law enforcement to do anything to them. Also a lot of cyber crime is carried out by juveniles as well.

You will probably find that the majority of their parents are terrible, and actually do use physical discipline (when legally they shouldn't), which just drives home the 'might is right' attitude the scrotes have. They are also probably more visible due to not having places to hang out like many adult criminals do

 

[Orionaut]

You will probably find that the majority of their parents are terrible, and actually do use physical discipline (when legally they shouldn't), which just drives home the 'might is right' attitude the scrotes have. They are also probably more visible due to not having places to hang out like many adult criminals do

Well, if Spanking is causing all this, then incidents like this should be at an all time low and they should certainly have been far more common 50 years ago.

Cant say that I can remember kids doing anything worse than playing "Knock Down Ginger" back in the 60's

Oh and Every schoolboy carried a Knife (And many Schoolgirls too, a generation before me, My Mum tells me that she became quite proficient at Knife throwing)

And nobody got stabbed

(well except by accident. But even that was surprisingly rare, especially when you consider that games like "Split the Kipper" were quite popular at playtime!)

 

[StriderX]

Well, if Spanking is causing all this, then incidents like this should be at an all time low and they should certainly have been far more common 50 years ago.

Cant say that I can remember kids doing anything worse than playing "Knock Down Ginger" back in the 60's

Oh and Every schoolboy carried a Knife (And many Schoolgirls too, a generation before me, My Mum tells me that she became quite proficient at Knife throwing)

And nobody got stabbed

(well except by accident. But even that was surprisingly rare, especially when you consider that games like "Split the Kipper" were quite popular at playtime!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7502180.stm


So crimes barely recorded, if recorded, weapon used only when officially charged, and for the most part <16 crime was never recorded until the last decade... hmm, i think someone has a skewed viewpoint - perhaps nostalgic and ignoring things.

As i can't find data that would be remotely reliable, i can only assume that knife crime in relevance to population and mostly in cities, was either nominal or higher than it is today, perhaps only with London in it's current state bucking the trend with an immense gap in inequality.

 

[TheVoice]

Most of those incidents Chris Wilson listed should have been dismissed as a waste of police time if there was any common sense left in the police force. Even if you gave the police twice as much funding they'd just waste it on that type of nonsense.

They have to record it, what part of that aren't you understanding? The police didn't ask for this extra workload.

 

[Daff_Duck]

This might have been said before, but which is he more effective, fear or praise?
I am of the age we’re smaking, hitting was a “ norm “ in households. My father scared the $ out of me. He only had to raise his voice and I knew that all he’ll wouid be let lose.

Fear can control millions, in my eyes praise, call it what you will, gets you so far as if requires co -operation. Fear wins hands down as the consequence are known and severe.

Yes, I live in a free speech country and am grateful. But discipline and the no rules do what you want without consequences society we seem to live in now were everyone blames someone else is not the future I envisaged or particularly look forward too.

 

[mmj_uk]

They have to record it, what part of that aren't you understanding? The police didn't ask for this extra workload.

If they are not crimes why should they be recorded? if they are crimes and there is enough evidence then caution and/or arrest the accused and pass the case onto the CPS. If it is a crime and there is not enough evidence they should not be recording unsubstantiated claims as 'intelligence', which is basically one side of the story and could be a totally made up and be used against the accused later.

All of the time the police are spending attending infantile complaints and sitting behind their desks recording complaints that are not even legally recognised crimes, real actual crime that impacts communities far more negatively and for everyone is being allowed to spiral out of control.

 

[FoxEye]

You do know that respect != fear, right?

Fear can be healthy. Not walking too near to a cliff edge is done for fear of falling off.

People who advocate that children should not in any way fear their parents are basically saying that children should have free reign to do as they please.

 

[krooton]

Fear can be healthy. Not walking too near to a cliff edge is done for fear of falling off.

People who advocate that children should not in any way fear their parents are basically saying that children should have free reign to do as they please.

I guess I just see things differently, I respect people based on what they do, not out of fear for what they might do to me.

I don't steal as I consider it fundementally wrong, not because I am scared of being caught or going to jail.

This is also why I don't ascribe to fire & brimstone religions, if people are only being 'good' because they want a reward, or are scared of going to hell, then are they really being good?

 

[asim18]

I guess I just see things differently, I respect people based on what they do, not out of fear for what they might do to me.

I don't steal as I consider it fundementally wrong, not because I am scared of being caught or going to jail.

This is also why I don't ascribe to fire & brimstone religions, if people are only being 'good' because they want a reward, or are scared of going to hell, then are they really being good?

I agree with this.

Fear won't give your kid morals or help them understand WHY stealing is wrong. They will just steal when they are out of the parents sight lol. I see this sort of crap all the time, people think their child is so nice in front of them because they are afraid of them, but when they're 15 and out alone, they are ****s because they have NEVER actually been taught WHY stealing is wrong.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Fear won't give your kid morals or help them understand WHY stealing is wrong. They will just steal when they are out of the parents sight lol. I see this sort of crap all the time, people think their child is so nice in front of them because they are afraid of them, but when they're 15 and out alone, they are ****s because they have NEVER actually been taught WHY stealing is wrong.

Fear teaches you not to get caught. The moment these kids think they won't get caught is the moment their discipline goes out the window.

 

[SPG]

I agree, but the known consequence (i.e a good beating) of getting caught makes you think twice before doing it, straight away you have halved the problem

 

[chrcoluk]

I guess I just see things differently, I respect people based on what they do, not out of fear for what they might do to me.

I don't steal as I consider it fundementally wrong, not because I am scared of being caught or going to jail.

This is also why I don't ascribe to fire & brimstone religions, if people are only being 'good' because they want a reward, or are scared of going to hell, then are they really being good?

Well fear doesnt need to be perpetual. It also doesnt need to be used as a primary means. Good parents can treat their children to respect authority, we know as it happens. The problem is when there is bad parents, it seems too hard for the system to teach respect without a degree of fear. I feel its not a big problem with adults, its more a problem with children.

So if we talking about a school, it could be that a teacher cant just whip someone because they decide to throw a pen on the floor or something, it would be a punishment only used after the parents are given the opportunity to discipline the child themselves first, and other methods are attempted by the school as well, but if after all this children remain problematic, then a whip could be an option after non fear tactics have been tried. Outside of schools, the police clearly more powers against children, including detaining them.

 

[StriderX]

Well fear doesnt need to be perpetual. It also doesnt need to be used as a primary means. Good parents can treat their children to respect authority, we know as it happens. The problem is when there is bad parents, it seems too hard for the system to teach respect without a degree of fear. I feel its not a big problem with adults, its more a problem with children.

So if we talking about a school, it could be that a teacher cant just whip someone because they decide to throw a pen on the floor or something, it would be a punishment only used after the parents are given the opportunity to discipline the child themselves first, and other methods are attempted by the school as well, but if after all this children remain problematic, then a whip could be an option after non fear tactics have been tried. Outside of schools, the police clearly more powers against children, including detaining them.

Aye ok mr Saudi level of authority. next you'll be calling for murder.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I agree, but the known consequence (i.e a good beating) of getting caught makes you think twice before doing it, straight away you have halved the problem

Psychologically, certainty of punishment is what dissuades people most, severity is a considerable distance behind. Especially with young people who are keyed to have a high tolerance for risk / poor risk perception.

 

[GGizmo]

I guess I just see things differently, I respect people based on what they do, not out of fear for what they might do to me.

I don't steal as I consider it fundementally wrong, not because I am scared of being caught or going to jail.

This is also why I don't ascribe to fire & brimstone religions, if people are only being 'good' because they want a reward, or are scared of going to hell, then are they really being good?

The problem is all people aren't like you. It is interesting that you typed "I don't steal as I consider it fundementally wrong, not because I am scared of being caught or going to jail.". You should be scared of being caught and/or going to jail, the fact you aren't proves the point the system is failing.

Not everyone is like Dexter.

The part about religion kinda misses the point. Who cares what the motive is for being good as long as they are being good and not causing mayhem to other people? You've let your anti-religious opinion dominate over logic.

This is the problem today, everyone thinks they are bigger than the system because of their ego. You aren't. Humans aren't meant to be living by their own rules. We're a pack animal. Yes the strongest moral people can survive without being told what is right and wrong, but the majority of people can't. A lot of people like being told what to do. It means they don't need to worry about things. They can get up, know what they are doing that day and be happy. These days those same people are just left to their own devices.