Description of Afterlife?

[Naffa]

Ha!...it's immensely unlikely that we are here at all......but we are all the same...

'We', as in something living, or 'we' as in human beings? I know that it's unlikely, but given that we live in a universe in which the conditions for such an occurrence are possible, the sheer volume of starts, galaxies, etc, make it profoundly likely that it will happen somewhere.

If you're talking about humans, then yes, trying to guess the outcome of fifty dice rolls perfectly is difficult. But seeing what the fifty rolls are, once they have been rolled, is relatively straight forward.

PS I think you'll like this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/ju...cfarlane-carl-sagan-library-congress-20120628

 

[ispy]

We believe there is one God and it seems if you believe that man has corrupted scripture on our side why not so on yours

The previous Scriptures were assigned to the scholars (priests, rabbis) and they became their custodians, after the demise of the Prophets, and thus responsibility remained with them to ensure that they relayed the Scripture to the masses and maintained it (from being corrupted). However after time they were negligent in their responsibility succumbing to their desires and being fearful of oppressive rulers that they gave verdicts in accordance with what pleased them (masses, people in authority) and in return for wealth and status.

The difference with the revelation of the Quran is that Allah Himself has promised to protect it. It was revealed by Jibraeel* to the Prophet*. At first the Prophet* being concerned that he might forget the recitation tried hard to grasp and recite it, doing so repeatedly and hurriedly. Then Allah revealed the verses comforting the Prophet* that He will secure it (in the chest of the Prophet). After this the Prophet* used to remain silent, and then after Jibraeel* had left the Prophet* used to recite it just as Allah had promised him. The revelation was recited to the companions of the Prophet who had brought faith and it was inscribed on parchments and other material and later collected in Book form. However one of the realisations of the promise of Allah to protect the Quran was by means of it being secured in the hearts of the believers (via memorisation). Such that some companions could recite the entire Quran from memory and in this manner it was cross-checked with the written form. It remains so to this day that the Quran is secured in this manner and there are many who have memorised the Quran. Such that if you were to remove all copies of the Quran from this world it would not be an arduous task to compile it again in the written form. One who has secured it to memory is known as a Hafiz (lit guardian, protector) of the Quran. There are numerous Huffaz (plural) amongst Muslims to this day.

*peace be upon them

Below clips are to recitation of the Quran in congregational prayer and being recited without looking into the text.

Clip1 Clip2

In Ramadhan (Islamic month of fasting) the Quran is recited to completion in mosques around the globe in the same manner.

A noteworthy characteristic is that the current Gospel is a third person narrative. Whilst the Quran is in the first person narrative i.e. Allah is the Speaker.

I've highlighted the two distinct styles of revelation as the existing Gospel does not sit well in light of what is mentioned to Prophet Moses* in Deuteronomy 18:18

• ".. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My Words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him ..."

Some of the verses regarding the corruption of previous Scriptures and immunity from corruption of the Noble Quran are below.

• It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. [5:44]
  
• O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (the Prophet) and a plain Book (this Quran). [5:15]
  
• Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran, O Muhammad) to make haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and to give you the ability to recite it (the Quran). And when We have recited it to you (O Prophet - through Jibraeel (Gabriel)), then follow you its (the Quran's) recital. [75:16-18]
  
• We have without doubt, sent down the Message and we will assuredly guard it from corruption. [15:9]
  
• Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it (it is) sent down by the All-Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allah). [41:42]
  
• And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morning and evening [25:5]
• "And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." [6: 115]
• “And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it." [5:48]
• "Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants." [17:88]
• "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a chapter the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allaah, if you should be truthful." [Quran 2:23]

See: Commentary on 75:16-18

The Islamic Creed (al-aqidah al-tahawiyya) states,

• "... The Qur'an is the Word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how. He sent it down on His Messenger as revelation. The believers accept it, as absolute truth. They are certain that it is, in truth, the word of Allah. It is not created as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He: "I will burn him in the Fire." (74:26) When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say "This is just human speech" (74:25) we know for certain that it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and that it is totally unlike the speech of mankind"
• "... We do not argue about the Qur'an and we bear witness that it is the speech of the Lord of all the Worlds which the Trustworthy Spirit Jibraeel came down with and taught the most honoured of all the Messengers, Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. It is the speech of Allah and no speech of any created being is comparable to it."

In respect to our acknowledgement of the Bible;

• If the verse conforms with Islamic belief we agree with it (in meaning)
• If it contradicts we reject it
• If we are unsure whether it conforms or contradicts then we remain silent

All previously divinely revealed texts have no doubt remnants of truth in them however with much corruption hence they no longer (either) substantiate the belief in pure monotheism due to ascribing divinity to others along with Allah (Christianity) or it retained monotheistic belief in Allah but the text was corrupted (Judaism). All previous revelations have been abrogated with the revelation of the Quran.

 

[jmc007]

The episode of South Park where the space jews created earth as a giant Truman Show for their profit seems the most likely scenario imo.

Gave me a jolly good chortle.

*Edit. I replied to this light hearted post before I saw your serious reply ispy. Which I will read now.

*Re-Edit. Sorry I had to throw in a "space angels slyat 7" reference.

 

[ToxicTBag]

We live .. we die .. we rot .. the best you can hope for is that while you are alive do what you can to live a responsable life and hope that you are remembered for the good things you have done.

 

[Elrein]

Why does there always have to be something after we die, get over it when your dead your dead. Ever been unconscious for an operation etc? When u wake up you remember the before n the after but the during is a blank..... Well that's what death is except there is no after!

Two things I can't stand, 1. Religion and 2. Religion and there both made up just to pay someone's else car tax etc

Ever wondered why if a plane / train crashes and the only survivor is lil Jonnie and people say its a miracle! Yeh well your so called god took out the other 297 people and saved little Jonnie to take your mind off the carnage for a minute while he ducks out for a leak before he makes another hero out of the sunami he just dropped on Japan (no reference to real life incidents ok it's just an example)

K I need to lye down now.

 

[Castiel]

'We', as in something living, or 'we' as in human beings? I know that it's unlikely, but given that we live in a universe in which the conditions for such an occurrence are possible, the sheer volume of starts, galaxies, etc, make it profoundly likely that it will happen somewhere.

If you're talking about humans, then yes, trying to guess the outcome of fifty dice rolls perfectly is difficult. But seeing what the fifty rolls are, once they have been rolled, is relatively straight forward.

The whole edifice we refer to as existance is so inconceivably unlikely it beggars belief....but we exist and you are right it is easy to see how obvious something is in hindsight or with the knowledge of discovery. However that age old adage absence of proof isn't proof of absence means that in an infinite Universe there remains infinite possibilities.

'PS I think you'll like this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/ju...cfarlane-carl-sagan-library-congress-20120628

That is excellent and I think they have chosen the right person in Neil deGrasse Tyson, who I only read the other day was quoted as saying "Am I an Atheist, you ask? Labels are mentally lazy ways by which people assert they know you without knowing you.” When it was suggested that his speaking out about teaching Intelligent Design in schools was an endorsement of Atheism, he says he doesn't want to be associated with such a movement after attempts to encourage him to be involved in promoting atheism in Black America.

Carl Sagan was loathe to be labelled thusly as well if I recall, preferring to simply state his ideas positively rather than denigrating others negatively. Which I aways feel is a more efficient way of getting you point across, I wish I was as accomplished at it as both the aforementioned.

But a reimagining of Cosmos is definitely on my must-watch list...right at the top. Cosmos was one of the highlights of a rather troubled childhood for me, opening the universe and questions of existence that still motivate me to this day. I never really realised just how much of an influence Carl Sagan had on me until discussing it on here. We need more accessible Scientists and Thinkers like him tbh.

 

[jmc007]

The previous Scriptures were assigned to the scholars (priests, rabbis) and they became their custodians, after the demise of the Prophets, and thus responsibility remained with them to ensure that they relayed the Scripture to the masses and maintained it (from being corrupted). However after time they were negligent in their responsibility succumbing to their desires and being fearful of oppressive rulers that they gave verdicts in accordance with what pleased them (masses, people in authority) and in return for wealth and status.

The difference with the revelation of the Quran is that Allah Himself has promised to protect it. It was revealed by Jibraeel* to the Prophet*. At first the Prophet* being concerned that he might forget the recitation tried hard to grasp and recite it, doing so repeatedly and hurriedly. Then Allah revealed the verses comforting the Prophet* that He will secure it (in the chest of the Prophet). After this the Prophet* used to remain silent, and then after Jibraeel* had left the Prophet* used to recite it just as Allah had promised him. The revelation was recited to the companions of the Prophet who had brought faith and it was inscribed on parchments and other material and later collected in Book form. However one of the realisations of the promise of Allah to protect the Quran was by means of it being secured in the hearts of the believers (via memorisation). Such that some companions could recite the entire Quran from memory and in this manner it was cross-checked with the written form. It remains so to this day that the Quran is secured in this manner and there are many who have memorised the Quran. Such that if you were to remove all copies of the Quran from this world it would not be an arduous task to compile it again in the written form. One who has secured it to memory is known as a Hafiz (lit guardian, protector) of the Quran. There are numerous Huffaz (plural) amongst Muslims to this day.

*peace be upon them

Below clips are to recitation of the Quran in congregational prayer and being recited without looking into the text.

Clip1 Clip2

In Ramadhan (Islamic month of fasting) the Quran is recited to completion in mosques around the globe in the same manner.

A noteworthy characteristic is that the current Gospel is a third person narrative. Whilst the Quran is in the first person narrative i.e. Allah is the Speaker.

I've highlighted the two distinct styles of revelation as the existing Gospel does not sit well in light of what is mentioned to Prophet Moses* in Deuteronomy 18:18

• ".. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My Words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him ..."

Some of the verses regarding the corruption of previous Scriptures and immunity from corruption of the Noble Quran are below.

• It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. [5:44]
  
• O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (the Prophet) and a plain Book (this Quran). [5:15]
  
• Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran, O Muhammad) to make haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and to give you the ability to recite it (the Quran). And when We have recited it to you (O Prophet - through Jibraeel (Gabriel)), then follow you its (the Quran's) recital. [75:16-18]
  
• We have without doubt, sent down the Message and we will assuredly guard it from corruption. [15:9]
  
• Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it (it is) sent down by the All-Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allah). [41:42]
  
• And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morning and evening [25:5]
• "And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." [6: 115]
• “And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it." [5:48]
• "Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants." [17:88]
• "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a chapter the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allaah, if you should be truthful." [Quran 2:23]

See: Commentary on 75:16-18

The Islamic Creed (al-aqidah al-tahawiyya) states,

• "... The Qur'an is the Word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how. He sent it down on His Messenger as revelation. The believers accept it, as absolute truth. They are certain that it is, in truth, the word of Allah. It is not created as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He: "I will burn him in the Fire." (74:26) When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say "This is just human speech" (74:25) we know for certain that it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and that it is totally unlike the speech of mankind"
• "... We do not argue about the Qur'an and we bear witness that it is the speech of the Lord of all the Worlds which the Trustworthy Spirit Jibraeel came down with and taught the most honoured of all the Messengers, Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. It is the speech of Allah and no speech of any created being is comparable to it."

In respect to our acknowledgement of the Bible;

• If the verse conforms with Islamic belief we agree with it (in meaning)
• If it contradicts we reject it
• If we are unsure whether it conforms or contradicts then we remain silent

All previously divinely revealed texts have no doubt remnants of truth in them however with much corruption hence they no longer (either) substantiate the belief in pure monotheism due to ascribing divinity to others along with Allah (Christianity) or it retained monotheistic belief in Allah but the text was corrupted (Judaism). All previous revelations have been abrogated with the revelation of the Quran.

Back from collecting the wife from work. Man there is a lot to take in here, thank you for taking the time to put it here. I will take my time in responding accordingly.

 

[jmc007]

Right I have decided to reply without looking for answers on the internet e.t.c.
Your first paragraph is very presumptuos and frankly utter garbage. To say that all believers in He who reigns on high, throughout history, have succumbed and fallen to temptations. Whether through fear of death or for material gain is absolutely ridiculous. Simply, why have myriads of people around the world, relinquished their lives for their love and security in Gods only begotten son, Jesus Christ? From the very first believers in antioch and still now this present day, in various parts of the world. To say now that the spirit of God was not and is with these people is a statement I can never believe is true.
Reading the Bible today does not paint the rulers and kings of the earth in the faintest of positive lights, infact it says that God sits in the heavens laughing at their plans and how he will bring them to ruin. You would think they would at least of changed that bit hey?
I will not attack your holy book, though I will tell you that Deuteronomy 18:18, I believe emphatically, is talking about Gods Son, Jesus Christ. Though why you would quote a corrupt scripture at all is something you need to ask yourself.
I mean I cannot mention anything from the Bible which talks of the fulfillment of prophecies regarding Jesus, as you will only say that is a corrupted bit.
I believed in Him before I read the Bible and I am reassured that it speaks of Him when I do.
I disassociate myself from the Christian Crusades, as I do the recent attacks from the west in the middle east. As I believe that vengence is Gods and murder is not for the enlightened human being. Jesus said, "He who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword." and if I sit in this fat land and benefit from its riches to the detriment of others. Then maybe that sword will come for me also, though I pray God give me strength to overcome that.
It is foretold that the sons of Isaac and Ishmael shall always be at war to the end. Genesis 16:12. I pray for grace and mercy to all Gods children.

*Edit. I meant to say how I was fascinated to see in the Qua'ran how God talks of Himself in the plural. It has always intrigued me when He does so in the Bible. i.e. When He said "lest they become Gods like us."

One more thing I would be interested in which truths you as a Muslim except from Genesis regarding Isaac and Ishmael? Thank you ispy.

 

[ethan]

We live .. we die .. we rot ..

lol at your sig.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I think there's strong evidence that our conciseness does not go anywhere when we die. When any living creature dies, its brain stop functioning and therefore the pathways in our brain are no longer functioning, and, as such, our person ceases to exist. We know for a fact that our brains switch off when we die and that these signals no longer exist.

If you make the assumption that one has a soul which can disconnect from the body, then I can understand many of the arguments for the afterlife, but I don't think the soul exists based on the argument above.

We die, our brains switch off, and we begin to decompose, returning to the earth as carbon (and some other materials).

 

[jmc007]

I think there's strong evidence that our conciseness does not go anywhere when we die. When any living creature dies, its brain stop functioning and therefore the pathways in our brain are no longer functioning, and, as such, our person ceases to exist. We know for a fact that our brains switch off when we die and that these signals no longer exist.

If you make the assumption that one has a soul which can disconnect from the body, then I can understand many of the arguments for the afterlife, but I don't think the soul exists based on the argument above.

We die, our brains switch off, and we begin to decompose, returning to the earth as carbon (and some other materials).

I believe that is the crux question of this thread dirty and is the first time it has been put so succinctly. (Thank God I finally found out about Firefox spellchecker today and how to right-click over any word with the red squiggly line. )
Searched Google for scientific evidence of the soul now.
Not saying it's Gospel though.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes

 

[ispy]

Right I have decided to reply without looking for answers on the internet e.t.c.

I was hoping, as you initially stated “…I will take my time in responding accordingly …”; that you read over the entire post in detail before replying and that would have sufficed and saved me the trouble of this reply and repeating much of what was said in my earlier response.

Your first paragraph is very presumptuos and frankly utter garbage.

It’s not something I’ve contrived,
It’s summary of verse 5:44 mentioned further in the post,

• “… It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. [5:44] …”

There are other verses to the same effect.

• Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. [2:79]
• There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! [3:78]

To say now that the spirit of God was not and is with these people is a statement I can never believe is true.

The same can be claimed by any of the adherents of other religions who have a large following. It doesn’t in any way substantiate their claim.
Prophets were sent as warners to their people. After their demise the original message over time became tainted by means of corruption or going to excess in their faith. When that happened and the message was gradually lost amongst the general masses new messengers were sent to make the same reminder. At times there existed numerous Prophets whilst others were still alive especially amongst the descendants of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him). Prophet `Isa and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them) being the last amongst the lineage of Prohet Ishaaq and Prophet Isma`il (peace be upon them) respectively.

I will tell you that Deuteronomy 18:18, I believe emphatically, is talking about Gods Son, Jesus Christ. Though why you would quote a corrupt scripture at all is something you need to ask yourself.

I’ve already answered this in my last post.
In respect to our acknowledgement of the Bible;

• If the verse conforms with Islamic belief we agree with it (in meaning)
• If it contradicts we reject it
• If we are unsure whether it conforms or contradicts then we remain silent

The statement ‘I will put My Words in his mouth’ is applicable to the style of the revelation of the Quran, the first person narrative, this was my reason to quote it as opposed to the style of passages in the New Testament for example the accounts given in ‘John’. Could one claim these are Words of God and part of the original divine revelation given to Prophet `Isa (peace be upon him)? Or is it more akin to an account being related by someone else?

• 4 And they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came first to the sepulcher.
• 5 And stooping down and looking in, he saw the linen cloths lying, yet he went not in.
• 6 Then came Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulcher and saw the linen cloths as they lay
• ..

Also noteworthy is the brothers/brethern of the Jews are the Arabs (respectively descendants of Prophets Ishaaq and Isma`il (peace be upon them)

It is foretold that the sons of Isaac and Ishmael shall always be at war to the end. Genesis 16:12. I pray for grace and mercy to all Gods children.

If you referring to Jews and Arabs then yes this is mentioned in Islamic prophecy and will go on until the descent of Prophet `Isa (peace be upon him) when he will kill the anti-Christ (dajjal). The Jews rejected Prophet `Isa and same occurred with Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them). They await their Messiah (dajjal) whom they will accept.
There are also Jews who will accept Prophet `Isa on their return and even beforehand at the coming of the Mahdi (title meaning the guided one) [a prophesised Muslim leader who will spread justice in the world as it is currently filled with tyranny and will be the descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Mahdi will precede the coming of the anti-Christ and he will stand alongside Prophet `Isa (peace be upon him) when they return to this world and kill the anti-Christ.

*Edit. I meant to say how I was fascinated to see in the Qua'ran how God talks of Himself in the plural. It has always intrigued me when He does so in the Bible. i.e. When He said "lest they become Gods like us."

The ‘We’, ‘Us’ usage is an address of royalty and authority. Amongst the Blessed Names of Allah mentioned in the Quran are The Loving, The Most Merciful, The Originator, The Sovereign, The Lord of the Worlds, The Gatherer, The Compeller, The Owner/Master of the Day of Judgement, The True King to list a few from the ninety-nine mentioned. I really hope that you are not alluding to trinitarian claims of three in one? The Quran emphatically rejects such a notion in clear verses and states that it is the utterance of the disbelievers.

• Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

One more thing I would be interested in which truths you as a Muslim except from Genesis regarding Isaac and Ishmael?

If you wish to ascertain what passages in the Bible may indicate towards the truth (in meaning) then I've already mentioned the criteria in my earlier post and above.

They were both major Prophets. Prophet Isma`il the one placed under the knife for sacrifice. From whose lineage Muhammad was the last Messenger and from descendants of Ishaaq `Isa was the last Messenger (peace be upon them all). We believe that whatever was originally revealed in Scripture to the Prophets as absolute truth. However we can’t say for sure what remains as truth. Nor do we go out of our way to study the Bible as it has been abrogated by the revelation of the Quran and serves as the Criterion till the Day of Resurrection. See verse [5:48]; already cited in my previous post and verses below.

• “And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it." [5:48]
• And He will teach him the Book and Al-Hikmah, and the Tawrah and the Injil. And will make him a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave; and I heal the blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Tawrah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So have Taqwa of Allah and obey me. Truly, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the straight path.'' [3:48-50]
• "Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." [3:67]
• "And do not debate with the People of the Book, unless in the best of manners, but not with those who are unjust, and say: "We believe in the Revelation that has come down to us and in that which has come down to you; Our God and your God is One, and to Him do we wholly give ourselves." [29:46]
• "Say (O Muslims): we believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and their children, and that which Moses and Jesus received and that the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered." [2:136]
• "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [3:85]

Ritual laws may have changed in accordance with the Wisdom of Allah as a test for the people. So some divine law(s) applicable to the Children of Israel is no longer applicable and abrogated (see 3:49] However the creed/doctrine in the fundamentals of the faith i.e., the belief in the Oneness of God must remain the same. And this is pertinent point in respect to the assertion in Trinity. It breaks that consistency and purity of the message as conveyed by all righteous prophets throughout the ages conveying the same message - to worship God alone without any partners.

Out of curiosity how many of the previous prophets preached the trinitarian belief and understanding, as conveyed by the Church today, after the demise of the Prophet Ìsa (peace be upon him)? Was it incumbent on Prophets Adam, Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim, Isma`il (Ishamael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya`qub (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), Sulaiman (Solomon) and Yahya (John) amongst others sent - to believe so and were they commanded by God to emphasise and preach it to their respective nation/people? What statements declare that they did such?

And did you reflect on the miracle of the Quran being secured in the hearts? An entire revelation memorised by millions of Muslims. Surely you must admit that there is no parallel for this feat in respect to other Scriptures? Besides the memorisation aspect it's linguistic beauty, eloquence, intensity, emotion and message conveyed also remains unparallelled. The plight and frustration of the pagan Arabs inability to bring anything in comparison to the beauty of the Quran, although they themselves were in their time masters of poetry and eloquence, is succinctly captured in the following verses.

• Therefore, remind and preach (mankind, O Muhammad of Islamic Monotheism). By the Grace of Allah, you are neither a soothsayer, nor a madman. Or do they say: "(Muhammad is) a poet! We await for him some calamity by time.!" Say (O Muhammad to them): "Wait! I am with you, among the waiters!" Do their minds command them this [i.e. to tell a lie against you (Muhammad )] or are they people exceeding the bounds (i.e. from Belief in Allah to disbelief). Or do they say: "He (Muhammad ) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [52:29-34]

Thank you ispy.

You’re welcome, thank you.

 

[bhavv]

So much talk about the afterlife ... Has anyone ever thought of their beforelife?

How was it all the way back when half of you was an ovarian egg, and the other half a testicular sperm? Did you have a double / split mind before your two halves came together? Hey maybe that's why the brain has two hemispheres, one from the egg and one from the sperm. I remember floating around inside a uterus while my two halves were merging and replicating into one, it was so calm and blissful.

But then one day I heard some heavy panting followed by screaming, and I was forced out of my nice cosy home into a brand new world which turned out to unfortunately be rather terrible

 

[ethan]

I think there's strong evidence that our conciseness does not go anywhere when we die. When any living creature dies, its brain stop functioning and therefore the pathways in our brain are no longer functioning, and, as such, our person ceases to exist. We know for a fact that our brains switch off when we die and that these signals no longer exist.

Ok then where is it? The evidence that is? I suppose the best we can say is that we haven't found any that certain bodies might find acceptable, which is not the same as saying that there isn't any.

In possible contradiction to the comment above there was a recent NDE incident concerning a Neurosurgeon/Neuroscientist whose neocortex was wiped out throughout his experience. He had an extremely rare form of bacterial meningitis. He was comatose for a week and such was the extent of the damage to his brain, he was unable to recognise his family, understand sounds on regaining consciousness and perform any of the normal cognative processes etc. Throughout his experience he was amazingly able to recognised deceased family and friends despite all of the usual functions associated with these processes being shut down: more than this he was able to interact with them when these things should not have been possible. His unconscious experience was much more vivid than his conscious waking state and, the damage to his brain had no bearing on his ability to function throughout his experience despite it effecting him physically. By our current understanding of things he shouldn't really have been having any kind of experience at all. It is not clear as to whether he could have had the sum total of his experience prior to complete shutdown or whether that as an explanation would be rendered useless by that shutdown being immediate at the point of his collapse?

Coming from a neurosurgeon who, before my coma, thought I was quite certain how the brain and the mind interacted and it was clear to me that there were many things I could do or see done on my patients and it would eliminate consciousness. It was very clear in that realm that the brain gives you consciousness and everything else and when the brain dies there goes consciousness, soul, mind—it’s all gone. And it was clear.

Now, having been through my coma, I can tell you that’s exactly wrong and that in fact the mind and consciousness are independent of the brain. It’s very hard to explain that, certainly if you’re limiting yourself to that reductive materialist view.

 

[bhavv]

Delirium / hallucinations in mentally damaged / comatosed minds don't really count as any kind of experience for what may happen after the brain dies entirely.

I believe it to simply be impossible for consciousness of any biological organism to survive beyond brain death, and there is no evidence, and there has never been any valid evidence for thousands of years of Human civilization to suggest otherwise. And no, completely non scientific psudo science and philosophical arguments do not class as any kind of proof, they are simply ramblings with no reinforcing structure to believe what they claim, much like Creationism.

If somehow, science was to determine with 100% certainty from a repeatable scientific method that consciousness does survive after death, I would change my mind. However if it managed to prove the opposite, most people who believe in an afterlife would refuse to belief it, and carry on following / believing their mythological fantasies.

 

[Morbius]

Delirium / hallucinations in mentally damaged / comatosed minds don't really count as any kind of experience for what may happen after the brain dies entirely.

Yep. Even people close to death. It's entirely reasonable that the brain might do weird stuff on its way out - it's a failing organ at that point.

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

Delirium / hallucinations in mentally damaged / comatosed minds don't really count as any kind of experience for what may happen after the brain dies entirely.

I believe it to simply be impossible for consciousness of any biological organism to survive beyond brain death, and there is no evidence, and there has never been any valid evidence for thousands of years of Human civilization to suggest otherwise. And no, completely non scientific psudo science and philosophical arguments do not class as any kind of proof, they are simply ramblings with no reinforcing structure to believe what they claim, much like Creationism.

If somehow, science was to determine with 100% certainty from a repeatable scientific method that consciousness does survive after death, I would change my mind. However if it managed to prove the opposite, most people who believe in an afterlife would refuse to belief it, and carry on following / believing their mythological fantasies.

I do wonder why, with modern medicine, it still hasn't been conclusively proven either way whether an afterlife actually exists. Surely there have been enough resuscitations for people to say either they experienced nothing, or they actually met spirits/saw another dimension or whatever? All the stories I've heard about "floating" outside the body are not detailed enough (still waiting to hear the results of the experiment where they put the pictures on the high shelves in the operating theater).

You would think that by now there would be someone who was brought back to life who would do something concrete like tell a complete stranger some personal information passed to them by a dead relative. Like if the patient woke up and told the surgeon his wife was murdered by their neighbour John Smith in 1995. The stories are always about them seeing their own dead relatives, which could be them dreaming.

 

[smelly_legend]

I think it's basically like the deepest sleep I have ever had.

 

[RDM]

And did you reflect on the miracle of the Quran being secured in the hearts? An entire revelation memorised by millions of Muslims. Surely you must admit that there is no parallel for this feat in respect to other Scriptures?

Other than the other religions that have many followers that also memorise their scriptures. Or in fact the millions of Star Wars fans that can recite word for word the entire film.

Besides the memorisation aspect it's linguistic beauty, eloquence, intensity, emotion and message conveyed also remains unparallelled.

We have had this argument before but no one seems to be able to bring any proof to the table that the statement is true, except of course a reference in the Koran. But that would be like proving the bible is true by referencing a verse in the Bible that says it is...

If the Koran is such a linguistic masterpiece why does it get more complex linguistically as time passes? Earlier verses are simpler than later verses. Which of course you would expect if it was written by man, but seems a bit odd if it was the direct word of God as dictated to Mohammed by Gabriel.

 

[RDM]

I do wonder why, with modern medicine, it still hasn't been conclusively proven either way whether an afterlife actually exists.

Because it is currently scientifically falsifiable. There is no test for it.