Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP after racism letter

Richie · 24 Apr 2023 at 19:53

C Kent said:
Is that you Kanye?

Not necessarily aimed at you but:

And therein lies one of the problems... You have to walk on eggshells and can't have an actual frank discussion about some subjects without being labelled negatively e.g. racist, anti-semitic, transphobic, homophobic etc etc.

These tactics are used to shut down any conversation usually because the person doing it is unable to argue their point properly.

How, as a people, are we supposed to move forward if we are unable to speak about certain topics frankly and without fear of being cancelled.

robfosters · 24 Apr 2023 at 19:55

Efour said:
Have you seen a history book? Everything that's wrong with the west is our fault. Now we are destroying the world with global warming too.

China says hi

C Kent · 24 Apr 2023 at 19:56

Richie said:
Not necessarily aimed at you but:

And therein lies one of the problems... You have to walk on eggshells and can't have an actual frank discussion about some subjects without being labelled negatively e.g. racist, anti-semitic, transphobic, homophobic etc etc.

These tactics are used to shut down any conversation usually because the person doing it is unable to argue their point properly.

How, as a people, are we supposed to move forward if we are unable to speak about certain topics frankly and without fear of being cancelled.

Was a joke

, but I agree with you. Me personally? I've no issue with discussing any and all subjects.

Richie · 24 Apr 2023 at 19:57

C Kent said:
Was a joke , but I agree with you. Me personally? I've no issue with discussing any and all subjects.

Yeah I realise it was a little tongue-in-cheek but it let me make a point

bigmike20vt · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:18

[

Efour said:
Have you seen a history book? Everything that's wrong with the west is our fault. Now we are destroying the world with global warming too.

when it comes to damaging the environment now I am not sure that is true.

Top 10 Countries with the Worst Air Pollution - PM2.5 exposure (µg/m³) - State of Global Air 2020 (2019 data)
India - 83.2
Nepal - 83.1
Niger - 80.1
Qatar - 76
Nigeria - 70.4
Egypt - 67.9
Mauritania - 66.8
Cameroon - 64.5
Bangladesh - 63.4
Pakistan - 62.6

Devilman · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:21

bigmike20vt said:
[
when it comes to damaging the environment now I am not sure that is true.

Top 10 Countries with the Worst Air Pollution - PM2.5 exposure (µg/m³) - State of Global Air 2020 (2019 data)
India - 83.2
Nepal - 83.1
Niger - 80.1
Qatar - 76
Nigeria - 70.4
Egypt - 67.9
Mauritania - 66.8
Cameroon - 64.5
Bangladesh - 63.4
Pakistan - 62.6

Taking a snapshot of the current environment and it's largest polluters really doesn't reflect the truth though.

It conveniently overlooks the vast damage we have done in the build-up to getting here..

Industrial Revolution, entire cities blanketed in smog so thick people died.

The only difference now, is the west "export" their pollution to lesser developed nations.

bigmike20vt · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:23

Devilman said:
That conveniently overlooks the vast damage we have done in the build-up to getting here..

Industrial Revolution, entire cities blanketed in smog so thick people died.

The only difference now, is the west "export" their pollution to lesser developed nations.

I do agree with you....and there are no easy answers ...... other than the west needs to supply developing countries with the cleaner tech that can exist now so they don't have to be as dirty as we were years ago. but unless you have a special delorian we can't go back in time it's a mess but I am sorry I am not carrying the can for our ancestors... and esp not because I have the same colour of skin as them.

m4rmite · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:26

bigmike20vt said:
[
when it comes to damaging the environment now I am not sure that is true.

Top 10 Countries with the Worst Air Pollution - PM2.5 exposure (µg/m³) - State of Global Air 2020 (2019 data)
India - 83.2
Nepal - 83.1
Niger - 80.1
Qatar - 76
Nigeria - 70.4
Egypt - 67.9
Mauritania - 66.8
Cameroon - 64.5
Bangladesh - 63.4
Pakistan - 62.6

Figures seem way off against the link i found.

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

Find out the most polluted countries in the world in 2023. Check out which country in the world had the highest level of air pollution PM2.5. Download the IQAir AirVisual world air quality report.

www.iqair.com

Devilman · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:28

bigmike20vt said:
I do agree with you.... but unless you have a special delorian we can't go back in time it's a mess but I am sorry I am not carrying the can for our ancestors... and esp not because I have the same colour of skin as them.

No we cannot.. but begruding other nations for going through the same process we ourselves did is profoundly arrogant and self-important of the west.

They act as though because the damage they did was "in the past" it no longer matters and then use that to try and assert that developing nations should be denied the same chances the west took.

If the west really want to make an impact, stop bitching about developing nations doing the EXACT SAME THING we did 100+ years ago and instead find better ways to help them do what we did, but with less pollution.

It really smacks of "You shouldn't be allowed to do what we ourselves did to get to where we are today". - Something that has become hugely prevalent in recent western society.

Dis86 · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:30

m4rmite said:
Figures seem way off against the link i found.

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

Find out the most polluted countries in the world in 2023. Check out which country in the world had the highest level of air pollution PM2.5. Download the IQAir AirVisual world air quality report.

www.iqair.com

They're measuring different things. One is exposure the other is national average. Populations don't have an average distribution.

bigmike20vt · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:31

m4rmite said:
Figures seem way off against the link i found.

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

Find out the most polluted countries in the world in 2023. Check out which country in the world had the highest level of air pollution PM2.5. Download the IQAir AirVisual world air quality report.

www.iqair.com

either way..... one thing which occurs to me.... one of the most horrible vicious people in our current government happens to have pretty dark skin... but by some people's definition... she can't be considered racist. how is that right?

maybe it's ok if you let people drown in boats so long as they don't necessarily have brown skin?

Dis86 · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:31

Devilman said:
No we cannot.. but begruding other nations for going through the same process we ourselves did is profoundly arrogant and self-important of the west.

They act as though because the damage they did was "in the past" it no longer matters and then use that to try and assert that developing nations should be denied the same chances the west took.

If the west really want to make an impact, stop bitching about developing nations doing the EXACT SAME THING we did 100+ years ago and instead find better ways to help them do what we did, but with less pollution.

It really smacks of "You shouldn't be allowed to do what we ourselves did".

I mean that's literally what we're doing

"don't do that, it's really bad, do this instead"
"nah, that's more expensive, **** you"

Devilman · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:32

Dis86 said:
I mean that's literally what we're doing

"don't do that, it's really bad, do this instead"
"nah, that's more expensive, **** you"

So just telling developing nations not to do it and do something more expensive that they cannot yet afford in the same way the developed west is the solution?

If the west were serious about it they would go beyond just words.

Dis86 · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:34

Devilman said:
So just telling developing nations not to do it and do something more expensive that they cannot yet afford in the same way the developed west is the solution?

If the west were serious about it they would go beyond just words.

They can afford it and we do. Look how much money we put in to aid and international development funds. As well as R and D which is shared.

India has a full nuclear weapons programme, don't spout crap that they can't afford green tech and condoms.

bigmike20vt · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:36

Devilman said:
No we cannot.. but begruding other nations for going through the same process we ourselves did is profoundly arrogant and self-important of the west.

riiiiight so let the world go to hell so our grand children (and more so their grand children) can't breathe (people even now are dying of air pollution) just because our countries did it.

I call BS on that..... by that logics we have to allow Africa take on white slaves and the Jews get to gas a few million Christian Germans.

just in the interests of equality ........ sorry it CANT work like that.
I do agree however we need to help them expand using more sustainable tech, even if it costs us.... and we need to stop greenwashing by letting other countries generate our filth ....

but that isn't a black white issue.

Chris Wilson · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:42

Lots of naive attempts to make human nature sound like something that mankind can undo in a few years with Greta and the Greens help. Mother nature will sort it out, not Greta and not Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay.

bigmike20vt · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:47

Chris Wilson said:
Lots of naive attempts to make human nature sound like something that mankind can undo in a few years with Greta and the Greens help. Mother nature will sort it out, not Greta and not Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay.

technology got us into this mess and it is the only thing which will get us out of it
I mean... nature will eventually if you are happy with us being wiped out and some other top dog emerging (probably much smaller)...

Devilman · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:51

bigmike20vt said:
riiiiight so let the world go to hell so our grand children (and more so their grand children) can't breathe (people even now are dying of air pollution) just because our countries did it.

I call BS on that..... by that logics we have to allow Africa take on white slaves and the Jews get to gas a few million Christian Germans.

just in the interests of equality ........ sorry it CANT work like that.
I do agree however we need to help them expand using more sustainable tech, even if it costs us.... and we need to stop greenwashing by letting other countries generate our filth ....

but that isn't a black white issue.

At no point have I asserted that we should let the world go to hell "just because our country did it".

Nor did I remotely insinuate that slavery was acceptable or that it should be allowed to be done in reverse now.

What i DID say, was that developed western nations should be mindful / considerate in their responses.

To use a banking analogy, The west built up a huge debt (CO2 emissions) to develop to where we are today and we're now demanding that other developing nations be refused that same opportunity.

Furthermore - If we are really seriously about trying to reduce CO2 emissions and slow / reverse climate change, "The West" with our greater advancement and development should be making much more of an effort to help those developing nations choose the "more expensive, but cleaner" option. Rather like a well-established and financially secure parent helping their son/daughter with a deposit for a mortgage.

However I fear we are getting far off-topic to the thread and do not wish to derail it any further. Apologies to OP / Mods for minor diversion.

Chris Wilson · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:56

bigmike20vt said:
technology got us into this mess and it is the only thing which will get us out of it
I mean... nature will eventually if you are happy with us being wiped out and some other top dog emerging (probably much smaller)...

Actually and with respect overpopulation assisted by technology that tried to thwart nature got us here. If anyone thinks the populations of the world will give more than lip service to living like vegan troglodytes they're kidding themselves.

jpaul · 24 Apr 2023 at 20:57

silvagti said:
Worryingly, the Labour Party in particular seem to be enthralled by this mindset.

conservative party is more subtle/insidious - 1st exhibit Suella Braverman - misdirection, no one mentioned her in this thread.?

silvagti said:
that’s increasingly the problem. Many groups are trying to effectively create a hierarchy of victimhood where certain groups are painted as being oppressed and others celebrated as virtuous based solely on identity characteristics like race/gender/etc.

hierarchy - could say that Jewish community had strongest lobbying capability (compared to people of colour impacted by racism ) to have raised political ire against the labour party/Corbyn;
Keir then uses these reforms to his own ends, trying to pretend that reform is a substitute for any policies - newsflash Keir has no clothes.

Thought it was interesting the UN are (21Apr) discussing more liberal definition of anti-semitism - like the UK has adopted - but, International Human rights, are pushing back,
that that means, criticism of Israel behaviour in Palestine is verbotten https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/...rn-un-against-fraught-antisemitism-definition

strawman - Maybe chatgpt wrote Abbots draft speech